Print Story Huh.
By ObviousTroll (Sat Aug 17, 2019 at 07:49:39 PM EST) (all tags)
So, I'm in a program to help me abstain from eating anything everything that enters into my field of vision.

It's a thing.

And, so, I go to a lot of meetings, and we share about our lives. We give each other support, and advice.

And it works! I mean, at least for me. At this point I've spent 18 months at a weight that, until the HUSI meet up in Arlington last year (Thanks again, Wiredog!) I had not seen since my junior year of college.

Still, at these meetings, people ask you uncomfortable questions and you're supposed to seriously consider them and what the true answers to those questions might be.

Anyway... Last night, I joined my local bike shop's Strava group. The leader for the past 2 weeks appears to ride 250 miles a week.

250 miles a week.

I don't want to hear anyone tell me I ride too much, ever again.

In "related" news...

I became terribly frustrated Thursday night, but then I did the right thing. Long story short, I started on my campaign to redo the brake and shift cables on my bike, only to make a complete mess of it. After several hours of work, I was so frustrated that I was shaking. (The bike has internally routed cables. I thought I knew what I was getting into, but the actual truth was I had no idea how this was actually implemented. By the time I gave up I had not only managed to lose a foam rubber tube to the insides of my bike frame, I had jammed up a brifter and, in a remarkable example of "you're stronger than you think" I broke my bike repair stand. To make matters worse, once I
 understood how the internal routing was actually done, I realized that the entire project was a mistake - i hadn't actually needed to do it at all....)   The good news, though, is what I did when I realized this: I let it go. I packed up the bike parts and the pieces of the bike and I took them to the bike shop.

When I got back, Lamb was home. I told her about my decision to avoid having a meltdown (which would have led to my storming about the house, bellowing at whomever happened to be handy...) and she congratulated me on making the right choice. I was still so tightly wound, though, that she asked what she could do to help. I told her that I was trying to avoid eating – a lot – to calm myself down. So, instead I scrubbed dirty dishes while we had a long conversation about books, movies, and the recent history of women in technology and the sexism therein. Afterwards, we watched Annihilation, which I can recommend to people who like cerebral yet predictable SciFi. (Honestly. It was hard not to see the "surprise ending" coming...)   And I didn’t snack all night, which I was very proud of.  

Side Note: (Skip this if you’re not interested…) My own thought on the history of sexism in tech: I do not doubt the existence of sexism in tech, nor the influence of the "traditional" causes, but I wonder how much of the exclusion of women from tech was because it was young men – like me – who were so obsessed with technology that we spent 24 hours a day immersing ourselves in it. I mean, there were plenty of women in my college classes in the 80s – several of them obviously smarter than I was – but come 9 pm there were never more than 2 or 3 of us still in the computer lab and we were all of a single phenotype - socially inept, unwashed, young, and male. In my mind, that kind of obsessive behavior is almost always associated with young men. I’ve never heard of anyone studying that aspect of the PC revolution, but I suspect the strengths and limitations of “geeks like me” had a huge impact on the evolution of the tech economy which is only now fading away.

BTW - this is not some kind of brag. 1980s-me was so obsessed with getting time on the machines he was known to break into the machine rooms to get time alone with them. He was also neither tolerant of what kids today apparently refer to as "normies" nor interested in becoming so. When 1980s-me graduated he treated the idea of having to deal with end-users as an ugly and unfortunate reality. It was only years later, and very slowly, that he came to understand how limited his perspective was - and the important thing is that while the thought processes of 1980s-me were rare in a per-capita sense, they were hardly unique. I have to wonder how different the world would be today if the PC revolution hadn't been driven by a bunch of social misfits who all aspired to be ESR. I mean, it's possible it wouldn't have happened at all - that's the benefit of obsessive behavior, after all - but 2020s-me does wonder if gradualism might not have been a better approach all along.

< A Few Days Perspective | I'm foresee a lot more movie watching >
Huh. | 43 comments (43 topical, 0 hidden)
Women in tech by Orion Blastar (2.00 / 0) #1 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 12:12:18 AM EST
IN the 1940s-1960s women dominated in tech. Grace Hopper invented COBOL and a Catholic Nun invented BASIC and other languages.

The civil rights movement happened and women stopped taking tech jobs. There were men in tech but they were made fun of by being in an industry that women dominated in.

Then the microcomputer happened, boys got interested in it because of video games it played. With girls deciding not to get into tech but get MBAs instead. Those girls who did enter tech didn't know what binary was out of high school and the boys programming video games on the Apple II or Commodore 64 did. It was not taught in college because they figured everyone knew it.

It was third wave feminism and social justice warriors who wanted Tech more diverse with more women in it, but women did not take computer science classes but took liberal arts or business administration instead. By the time HR screened resumes via bachelor's degree in computer science the women's resumes got screened out because they had the wrong degree.

More women are getting into computer science and many are brilliant. Like the woman who invented the C256 Fenix computer: <a href=""></a> a computer Commodore should have made in the 1980s to compete with the Apple IIgs.

With too many men in tech it is like a locker room of cussing and pin up girl calendars and the like that may be hostile to women. You need to clean all of that up to avoid sexism.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium
I go with the economic explanation by MillMan (4.00 / 1) #30 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 12:09:15 PM EST
Once tech became prestigious and high value, women were pushed out - even right at the time when the working world was opening up to women outside of nursing, education, and secretarial work.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
Tech became high value by Orion Blastar (2.00 / 0) #37 Thu Aug 22, 2019 at 12:05:45 AM EST
during the rise of Silicon Valley and seed money for new companies like Intel from Fairchild. Intel made RAM for mainframes and also developed the 4004 4 Bit Microprocessor. After that it became a gold rush. Women got pushed out because of equal rights in the 1960s and taking liberal arts degrees instead of math and science degrees for computer science.

Women still dominated in the 1960s. In the 1970s the Microcomputers came out and boys had an interest in them and girls did not. So those boys grew up to get computer science degrees and get in tech.SO they targeted the home computer to boys via video games.

It was like when Ben and Jerry's tried to sell ice cream in Russia. Chunky Monkey had no meaning in Russia as it did the USA. Importing Vermont milk to make ice cream was expensive. People in Russia wanted traditional flavors. The truck and refrigeration systems suffered failures and blackouts so the ice cream was ruined because it did not have preservatives in it. It is a matter of environment.

You don't see many women in tech because girls don't get interested in tech the way boys do, and when they grow up most of the girls don't get computer science degrees.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium
[ Parent ]
thank you for proving my point by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 3) #40 Thu Aug 22, 2019 at 12:57:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You are welcome by Orion Blastar (2.00 / 0) #41 Thu Aug 22, 2019 at 10:16:43 PM EST
it is a complex thing to figure out why there aren't many women in tech. Some women bully the women who want to go into tech. I hope they would not and it breaks people.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium
[ Parent ]
Obsession by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #2 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 01:20:17 AM EST
I would note
A) the obsessive are more easily exploitable by the machinery of business. It’s not a virtue per se, though startup culture makes it so as they get more of you for less
B) obsessiveness is also a luxury and leaves someone else picking up your pieces. Guess which gender is normally conditioned towards this, leaving them less time and therefore seeming less committed aka expkoitable.

(Comment Deleted) by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #3 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 01:42:36 PM EST

This comment has been deleted by ObviousTroll

[ Parent ]
Both true. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #4 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 01:43:17 PM EST
 Like I said, this isn't me bragging - I'm just wondering if anyone has ever properly studied whether (a) the "hacker mentality" (another way of looking at tech obsession) was as influential as it seemed and, if so, (b) what impact it had on sexism in tech.

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
Yeah by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #23 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 03:04:38 PM EST
Didn’t think it was bragging. My point was more sexism and the exploitation of the classic nerd have their roots in the same issues.

[ Parent ]
I'm not really a hacker, nor have I played one ... by lm (2.00 / 0) #5 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 03:39:06 PM EST
... on TV.

Yet it seems that I have a much broader grasp of hacker culture and mentality than almost everyone I have ever worked with.

I think your anecdote about 2 or 3 members of your cohort being in the comp sci lab come 9pm tells the same tale. That's 2 or 3 folks out of how many in the program?

I mean, bracket all of the knowledge you have of how the IT industry has played out and imagine a world where the IT industry was formed by the guys still hacking away in the computer lab at midnight. That sort of thought experiment suggests to me that hack culture has been far less influential in the IT industry at large than most of us think.

Now, where that culture has been influential is on sites like /., Something Awful, 4Chan, 8Chan ...

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
Meh. There was the "IT industry" by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #13 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 08:36:37 PM EST
aka, IBM and the 7 Dwarves, but there was also the Cult of the Dead Cow, Stallman, ESR, and so on. And then, a little later, there was the Silicon Valley startup culture, with which I had no first hand experience with but seemed to me to be MBAs using the geeks to make their millions. If they hadn't had a ready supply of hard core geeks would the Valley have even happened?

I mean, yeah, you could well be right - I'm just one guy, with a limited point of view which is exactly why I'm asking about other points of view. 

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
Annihilation was pretty fun by lm (2.00 / 0) #6 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 03:41:03 PM EST
Parts were certainly predictable, especially the very end.

And good job on both avoiding the compulsion to eat and knowing when to throw in the towel on your bike project. That sort of maturity is hard to come by.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
Visually I enjoyed it a lot. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #14 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 08:38:50 PM EST
Also, I just finished the audiobook version this afternoon. A lot shorter than I was expecting, and a lot more open ended than the movie, but interesting in its own way. Lovecraft blended with scientific detachment.

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
Internally routed by marvin (2.00 / 0) #7 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 04:42:23 PM EST
Almost up there with pressfit bearings and hydraulic brakes. I figure that maybe one day it'll be worth buying the tools and figuring those type of things out, but it's hard to justify for a task you only do every few years. By the time you need to do it again, you've forgotten everything you learned.

Yeah... by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #15 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 08:40:19 PM EST
I dread ending up with hydraulic brakes. At least the shop was able to quickly straighten everything out for me. (but speaking of headsets, that's probably the next thing that needs to be done...) 

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
But hydros are awesome by marvin (2.00 / 0) #16 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38:33 AM EST
I have them on my hardtail and fatbike. Beautifully smooth braking. Not sure if my next commuter will be cable or hydraulic disc. The Promax Render-R on my Synapse are fiddly compared to my Deore brakes. There are some cable actuated hydros that look interesting, and limit the complexity somewhat.

Pressfit headsets need a bearing press and might also need the frame to be faced. Not every shop can/will do that. Still uncertain whether the shop that installed the headset on my hardtail frame did any facing. The risk of screwing it up means you might have to toss the frame, so not on my to-do list. Doubt I'll even do a pressfit BB. Just ride it til it blows up and get a shop to replace for $50 or so.

[ Parent ]
how long do your pads and rotors last? by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #19 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 09:09:53 AM EST
One thing that surprised me with my mechanical disc brakes is that I've had to replace the rotors after a few thousand miles of mostly road riding.

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
Don't know yet by marvin (4.00 / 1) #27 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 01:28:26 AM EST
Pads make it maybe 1-2000km on the two off road bikes, but those are fairly severe conditions - dusty, 400m of climbing in an hour-ish 15km ride with all the downhill at the end, 900m continuous descents down the mountain when I do a longer 30km loop, etc. Haven't ridden them enough to kill a rotor yet. I mostly avoid mud because I don't like wrecking trails or cleaning bikes after every ride. Organic / resin pads like my Deore brakes are pretty short lived.

Factory pads (semi-metallic?) and  discs on the Synapse, maybe 1000km with previous owner, and another 2-3000km with me, but it rarely goes out in the rain, which might help.

Around half of my miles are on the commuter, which is 1980's steel with rim brakes - maybe 3000km/yr on that? At 5800km for 2019 so far, but I don't track mileage on each bike, so rest of the numbers above are a guess.

[ Parent ]
Odd by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #8 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 07:49:10 PM EST
My computer labs were pretty much 50/50 from open to close.

Yeah, I dunno. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #12 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 08:28:53 PM EST
Like I said, there were a lot of women in my year and major, enough so that I was confused when I started seeing "where are the women in tech"  articles.

Still, my impression was that they - and most of the men - did their homework and went home. There were only a handful of us who were in there after midnight, actively exploring the internals of the minicomputers just for fun, and we were all unwashed neckbeards with no social lives.

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
femmes in tech by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 3) #9 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 07:59:39 PM EST

so, obviously this is my experience, but I have heard similar from many, many other women in tech.

if you were a geeky/nerdy girl back in the 80s, you were ridiculed to the point you hid it didn't let anybody know that was what you were in to.  and as much as we like to say "screw what people think!  you be you!" yeah, when you're a teen or pre-teen and what feels like the entire world is making fun of you, you tend to not do that thing.

hell, I was so embarrassed when other people in AP Computer Science (in 12th grade) realized I had a 100% average in the class, and they started lining up in front of me for help instead of the teacher.  they made fun of me but also asked for help and it was a weird, horrible thing. 

in college i happened into IRC, and I was made fun of by everybody I knew....except the other IRC people.  and there were enough female IRC people that I felt like I could continue because I was not alone.  it was truly a safe space for me that I had never had before.

when I got to the working world, people cared less that I liked computer things and I was good at it.  in fact, it was hailed as a major strength of mine when I was a mere microbiologist sequencing DNA.  (there is one exception at 1 interview where the asshat manager was all "wow, I've never met a girl who actually liked and knew this stuff!!!" but we're going to assume he was a random asshat)

I told clock that me being computer geeky/nerdy back in the 80s/early 90s felt analogous to walking into a Planned Parenthood and all the crazy people screaming at you.  Almost impossible to do by yourself, but maybe slightly easier when you have somebody walking alongside you.  He was very upset with my analogy, saying it was an extreme example and really wrong.  I pointed out that he has never ever been female and has absolutely NO idea what it is like on a day-to-day basis (especially with my crazy mother, and growing up in North Dallas), so maybe he doesn't get to judge me this time.

Thanks for that. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #10 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 08:25:21 PM EST
I don't like to think of myself as one of the people doing the screaming, but the truth is that I've come to realize is that despite my own feelings of being an outcast/geek I was also a terrible snob and I suspect I often came across as a bully when (in my head) I was only being direct.

So, yeah, I'm still a work in progress - but my daughter is happy to reorient me if she thinks I've gone astray. ;-)

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
Yeesh. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #11 Sun Aug 18, 2019 at 08:26:13 PM EST
I really have to get better at proof-reading before I hit post.... 

These pixels are getting smaller every year...

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
Oh and.... by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 3) #24 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 03:49:53 PM EST
again, in my experience, most of the women I knew who were good at math all went into accounting.  It was a safe and acceptable place for them to go.

I doubt you were one of the screamers.  I have found that actual nerd/geek/tech types tend to judge people based on skill and not gender.  Not true for everyone, but true in general.  The real screamers were the non-nerd/geek/tech types.

[ Parent ]
Yeah by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #28 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 03:19:49 AM EST
Radicalisation of the loner geek to blame women for social isolation  really wasn't a thing yet then.

[ Parent ]
QotD by iGrrrl (2.00 / 0) #31 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 02:37:09 PM EST
"I suspect I often came across as a bully when (in my head) I was only being direct."

I wonder about that kind of thing a lot. I was geek or geek adjacent most of my adult life, starting with being the only girl in the Computer Science class in 1979. (I played ballistics games on the teletype with a friend at another school, was the only girl at Star Trek gatherings.)

I went into science and into academia, where the sexism is very well documented (as in peer-reviewed, not anecdata). Many people in the academy pride themselves on being direct, myself among them. Some of what women face is direct chauvanism--surprise that a woman has interest and skills, dismissal because a woman's interest must be fake, dismissal because a woman's skills must be lesser. Sometimes that dismissal is disguised as being "direct", but it only reveals a person's prejudices, not an accurate assessment, or the same assessment they would give a man in the same situation.

So I guess it depends in part on what you thought you were being "direct" about.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

[ Parent ]
Well, if you’re used to being shut down by men by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #34 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 04:30:51 PM EST
would it matter what my motives were if I did it to you?

The personal anecdote in my mind happened in the very early 90s as a coworker and I were arguing over a math problem on a blackboard, trying to reason it out. (We were working on a very early DNA sequencer.)

Anyway, we were getting nowhere for quite sometime when another coworker, a woman I had completely dismissed as uninteresting and irrelevant because she never spoke up in meetings or discussions, walked up to the board and wrote out the correct solution. I was dumbfounded - and the look on her face said she knew I was. 

I mentioned this this to our mutual boss and he suggested that maybe the problem was that I had never given her a chance to speak out before.

It was a lesson I tried to take to heart, but that I still have to make a conscious effort at today, almost 30 years later.

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
exactly that by iGrrrl (2.00 / 0) #43 Fri Aug 23, 2019 at 07:50:41 AM EST
"... maybe the problem was that I had never given her a chance to speak out before."

Or she had stopped trying because she was being dismissed.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

[ Parent ]
Hmmm... by clock (2.00 / 0) #17 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 08:24:18 AM EST
I remember it more as a bit of a cringe and less of a huge reaction. Pretty sure I conceded that point quickly too. But that's me. And I am often wrong.

I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
you aren't good by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 1) #25 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 03:51:02 PM EST
at knowing what your facial expressions are expressing.  we tend to have these types of conversations all the time.

"stop judging me!"
"i'm not"
"your face says otherwise"


[ Parent ]
My mom.... by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #35 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 08:35:15 PM EST

Me: "What look?"

Finally she told me one day to hold my expression and go look in a mirror. It was a pretty impressive sneer, I will admit. 

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
rejection by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #26 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 01:26:56 AM EST
> when you're a teen or pre-teen and what feels like the entire world is making fun of you, you tend to not do that thing.

understandably so. humans are tribal creatures, and rejection from the tribe is painful. particularly at that age.

> it was truly a safe space for me that I had never had before.

that's really awesome, that moment of finding a safe space unxepectedly, especially if you weren't previously aware that you needed the safe space.

>all the crazy people screaming at you

i am sorry, and i wish they had not been a part of our culture.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
is it worse today? by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 1) #29 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 08:42:19 AM EST
i mean, you can find your safe space online, so that's great!  but instead of making fun of you to your face, it's all sneaky and online.

a few falls ago, an 8th grader at my kids' school committed suicide.  it was a community Thing for a few weeks.  now, it's all but forgotten.  i was told the suicide was due to extreme bullying.  last spring the school decided to spend $575,000 on a new "security vestibule" to prevent random shooters from entering the building (wha?? they are NEVER random at schools), but there is no anti-bullying campaign.

[ Parent ]
Bullying by Orion Blastar (2.00 / 0) #38 Thu Aug 22, 2019 at 01:57:39 AM EST
as a male I was bullied as well. Computers are just a fad like the pet rock, Microsoft and Apple will be out of business in four years.

When you are a male nerd the bullies tend to be physical as well with fights and destroying your stuff in front of you.

I had few friends and what friends I had needed help with homework and studying.

I am sorry you didn't have a safe space and got made fun of and picked on. Women can be mean to other women and not see tech as feminine.

Keep your skills up to date and keep going knowing those women who made fun of you now work in retail for minimum wage because they didn't study hard enough.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium
[ Parent ]
oh not retail by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 1) #39 Thu Aug 22, 2019 at 11:53:30 AM EST
they all went into teaching.  like, ALL of them.  which is weird to me, as I see teaching as a calling one does, not a "i need a job that's not retail."  i find it insulting to teachers they all ended up there.

[ Parent ]
Teaching by Orion Blastar (2.00 / 0) #42 Thu Aug 22, 2019 at 10:52:15 PM EST
Well that doesn't pay very much and the union takes a large chunk of it.

My son had teachers who could barely do math. Other parents complained (Some were engineers that did math in their heads) and if you solve it the way the parents were taught you got it wrong.

My son went into a special class and got a better teacher and learned math better as a result.

Men are being pushed out of teaching careers due to the sexual harassment rules and having no evidence and you are fired. A girl flunks and suddenly she passes because she was sexually harassed by the teacher. I wanted to be a teacher as I was tutoring students at my college and debugging programs the debugger could not solve. They would bring the students into the lab and tell me to teach them how to log in and use the software and printer while they stepped out for a smoke break. That was late 1980s and early 1990s when I worked in a computer lab at a college.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium
[ Parent ]
Aside from territory already covered by Phil the Canuck (4.00 / 1) #18 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 08:45:30 AM EST
So many of those 70s-80s tech pioneers were socially maladjusted men who lived and breathed their work.  They worked alongside other socially maladjusted men who lived and breathed their work.  There were some serious testosterone echo chambers created.  I doubt many of them were intentionally misogynistic but the cultures created in those various work cells undoubtedly were.

Right. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #20 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 09:13:01 AM EST
 > So many of those 70s-80s tech pioneers were socially maladjusted men who lived and breathed their work. 

Right, that's the point I'm curious about - whether anyone has made a specific effort to examine that particular aspect - whether the tech industry is the same as others in terms of sexism and the response to it, or whether the unusual nature of us early geeks made things worse, or better, or just different.

An Angry and Flatulent Pig, Trying to Tie Balloon Animals
[ Parent ]
250 miles a week. by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #21 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 01:18:18 PM EST
I did just over 200 in a week. Once. On vacation. Riding 30 miles a day, which takes 2 1/2 hours. Where does someone with a Real Job and a Real Life find the time?

I've been in government work for close to 20 years now and while tech in the government space is still whiter and more male than the population as a whole, it's better than the commercial sector seems to be. Presumably because of both the diversity requirements and because of the serious treatment of harassment and discrimination complaints. Well ,except in a couple of areas in the defense realm where people may be deployed to the sandbox. But there're a whole other set of issues there.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

in the lab .. by sasquatchan (2.00 / 0) #22 Mon Aug 19, 2019 at 01:29:31 PM EST
I graduated right at the edge of the pre-start-up era ..  The only folks in the labs at midnight were the folks who didn't know what they were doing (and so it was a "group project" in failure).

My class was about evenly mixed, sex wise.  Rarely were women in that midnight group.

The perspective of people who have been both... by iGrrrl (4.00 / 1) #32 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 02:47:04 PM EST
Transgender people who transition as adults can tell all the stories about how they are treated differently after transition.

Or the people who deal only by email, and the male colleague suddenly being questioned when his email went out under a female name. Or the pair of male and female teachers on line teaching 4 classes, and they each have 2, but are each teaching under both names and the female name gets >25% lower rankings from students.

I could do this all day.

I've been there, had my competence questioned (as a roadie, as a programmer, as a scientist, as a consultant) when my male colleagues were just accepted. It's wearying. So no, I don't think it's a tendency for obsessiveness exclusive to men. I know many women who can get just that obsessed about technically difficult things, but they do it in spheres where they don't have to constantly justify their right to even be in the room.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

FYA by iGrrrl (4.00 / 1) #33 Tue Aug 20, 2019 at 02:52:56 PM EST
Sexism in the Academy with footnotes, and written by a man.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

[ Parent ]
Different treatment by Merekat (4.00 / 2) #36 Wed Aug 21, 2019 at 02:29:33 AM EST
Had a meeting with a vendor about organizing a large install. The guy did the small words super slow version and I had to cut iver him multiple times. My younger male colleague off camera was astounded - he could not understand why they were doing the for-dummies version. I enlightened him.

[ Parent ]
Huh. | 43 comments (43 topical, 0 hidden)