Print Story Prop 4
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By aphrael (Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 10:36:35 AM EST) (all tags)
I'm almost certainly going to vote against Proposition 4, in part because I have serious problems with the idea, and in part because it's the third time in as many years that the voters have been asked to vote on the same idea, and I think repeatedly asking me to vote on the same thing and not accepting the answer is an abuse of the process.

But it's possible that something has changed, and I feel like i have a duty to read the text of initiatives before I vote on them, so I was reading it this morning while trying to summon the energy to go to work.

Buried inside of it are two profoundly wierd provisions.


The measure in question requires that doctors notify the parents of girls who are attempting to obtain an abortion; there are provisions for judicial waivers, and consent is not required (just notice).

The written notice shall be delivered by the physician or the physician’s agent to the parent, either personally or by certified mail addressed to the parent at the parent’s last known address with return receipt requested and restricted delivery to the addressee. If notice is provided by certified mail, a copy of the written notice shall also be sent at the same time by first class mail to the parent.

What's the point to this? If it's being sent by certified mail already, why require it to be sent a second time by normal mail? Is it (a) certified mail is untrustworthy? (b) some people will ignore certfied mail? (c) certified mail is easier for the girl to notice, intercept, and divert?

That said, this is wierd but harmless.

The other profoundly wierd provision isn't.

Any person who performs an abortion on an unemancipated minor and in so doing knowingly or negligently fails to comply with the provisions of this section shall be liable for damages in a civil action brought by the unemancipated minor, her legal representative, or by a parent wrongfully denied notification. The time for commencement of the action shall be within four years of the date the minor attains majority or four years of the date a parent wrongfully denied notification discovers or reasonably should have discovered the failure to comply with this section, whichever period expires later.

This makes it a civil offense to perform an abortion on a girl without notifying the parent of the girl, rather than a criminal offense. Which means the parents can sue you, but the state can't imprison or fine you; if we're going to have this law, I like that provision. (although, I think that a girl who persuades a doctor to perform an illegal abortion without notice should then not be allowed to sue him for doing so; that's horribly inequitable).

But the rules for the statute of limitation are bizarre.

The statute of limitations is a rule which says that even if someone being sued (or prosecuted) is guilty, that suit or prosecution must be brought within a set period of time. The period of time is usually some number of years after the event which gives rise to the lawsuit (in this case, performing the abortion without notification).

This statute of limitations says the parents of a girl, on whom an abortion was performed without notice being provided, must bring their suit within four years of the last of these three events:
(a) the girl turning 18
(b) the parents finding out that an abortion was performed without their notice
(c) the parents reasonably should have found out than an abortion was performed without their notice.

At first I was puzzled about this because I don't understand how we know when a parent should reasonably have found out that an abortion was performed without notice. (Since the fact that the statute of limitations has expired is something the *Defendant* must prove, having a hard to define standard for it hurts the doctor and helps the parents who want to sue). But it's worse than that. Since the statute of limitations begins to run when the last of these happens, the authors of the bill must be envisioning a time point which is (a) after the girl turns 18 and (b) after her parents actually find out that she had an abortion and they weren't notified.

WTF?

Why should there be some point *after* actual discovery, and after the girl becomes an adult, at which the statute of limitations has not yet begun to run?




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Prop 4 | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)
Designed to keep lawyers in business? by marvin (2.00 / 0) #1 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:04:14 AM EST
Truly bizarre wording. Not that it matters, but I think the "or"s are not quite as you outlined them. You gave each one equal ranking, but when I look at the proposition, I read it as:

(a) The time for commencement of the action shall be within four years of the date the minor attains majority or
(b) four years of the date a parent wrongfully denied notification discovers or reasonably should have discovered the failure to comply with this section, whichever period expires later.

Discovers or reasonably should have discovered is a single clause. There is no (c).

It seems redundant, really. The clause would work in favour of abortionist's defense lawyer if it were worded to be whichever period expires first.

Since it is whichever expires later, I have a hard time seeing the point of having it. It would take some balls to stand before a judge and say "Yes, your honour, Mr Smith found out about his daughter's abortion six years ago, but he wouldn't reasonably have discovered until just last year."

I wonder if someone lifted the text from another provision without really thinking about it. I've seen stuff produced by lawyers that makes me shake my head at times. They should know better, but still put their pants on one leg at a time.

Second thought by marvin (2.00 / 0) #4 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:36:19 AM EST
Hate posting replies to self. Must think harder in future.

You're studying law, aren't you? Can it be interpreted as follows?

  • The time for commencement of the action shall be within
  • (four years of the date the minor attains majority) or
  • (four years of the date a parent wrongfully denied notification discovers or reasonably should have discovered the failure to comply with this section,)
  • whichever period expires later.
Is the lack of a comma after the second "or" considered to be significant in the interpretation? That would give an opening for the defense lawyer, who can argue that the client should reasonably have discovered a decade ago, and that their legal action is baseless. Sort of like in sets, is it (i) or (ii) or (iii), or is it (i) or ((ii) or (iii)).

If the girl is still alive, though, I'm not really happy with the idea of her parents being able to sue independently, at least after they cease to be legal guardians. If a 16 year old chooses to have an abortion, and remains fine with it after she turns 18, then any civil liability might as well remain between her and her doctor at that point, until she turns 22 and the civil liability ends.

[ Parent ]
The answer is probably B... by atreides (2.00 / 0) #2 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:21:04 AM EST
...for the certified mail thing. I've sent bankruptcy stuff before like that. Many people are paranoid of certified stuff and don't want to accept it. When it comes back, you have proof that you tried to deliver it. Sending it normal mail, though, means that if they didn't want to accept the certified, they might still be able to know that something is happening that they need to know about (motions, judgments, etc.). Sure, they should have opened the certified thing, but at least it's better to be safe than sorry down the line.

He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.

Weird by duxup (2.00 / 0) #3 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 11:32:52 AM EST
I remember reading an article about the whole proposition system in CA.  On the surface it seemed like a lot of accessible democracy, but as the writer went on it seemed like rather a good way for special interests with funds to bypass some of the usual compromises that comes with a legislature and such and some serious messes.  This was early on so I don't know how it has turned out.

In MN there was a lot of interest in such an accessible system right up until there was a proposal and it seemed like everyone figured out how big a mess it could be and momentum for it just sort of died out.

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Budgets by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #5 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 01:10:30 PM EST
It is a particular disaster when propositions mandate budget expenditures.  For instance:

Year 1: Mandate 33% of the budget go to education.
Year 6: Mandate 33% of the budget go to transportation.
Year 14: Mandate 33% of the budget go to prisons.
Year 23: Mandate balanced budget.
Year 32: Complain that the stupid legislature can't create a decent budget.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Dear gord by duxup (2.00 / 0) #6 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 03:20:23 PM EST
I didn't know they could mandate expenditures too.   That's crazy. 

We had a vote here in MN to slowly dedicate income from a particular gas and car related taxes to transportation over time rather than the general fund, but that was about as close as we got to voting directly on expenditures and that was just restoring the taxes original intent rather than a major change.

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[ Parent ]
Also note by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #7 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 04:29:47 PM EST
In California, all tax increases require 2/3rds majority.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Oouch by duxup (2.00 / 0) #8 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 05:10:43 PM EST
I don't think (not sure) MN requires a 2/3rds majority, but lately with our governor it has to be veto proof but by some miracle they managed to override his veto this year (first veto override in like 60 years).  Your know with bridges falling down, why would we want more money for transpiration????

We do have some BS state imposed regulations that limit local government's ability to raise taxes, for some ungodly reason when a local gov wants to introduce a new tax the whole damn state has to approve it.  I think all that does is introduce a whole bunch crappy ass horse trading at the state level that is plain old not needed.

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[ Parent ]
Yes. by aphrael (4.00 / 1) #9 Tue Sep 30, 2008 at 05:11:50 PM EST
Prop 4 | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)