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MLP: 'European population structure with 300K SNPs and 6,000 individuals'

By chuckles (Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 12:22:16 PM EST) (all tags)

... at a time when -due to a sort of mental hysteresis- proclamations that "races are social constructs" are still routinely made, the discovery that not only races, but even closely related ethnic groups (e.g. Norwegians and Swedes) can be distinguished with greater than 90% accuracy, serves to illustrate the scientific irrelevance of the ethnic nihilists and the affirmation that nations are, at least in part, genetic entities.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/european-population-structure-with-300k.html

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MLP: 'European population structure with 300K SNPs and 6,000 individuals' | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 hidden)

Don't get me started. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #1 Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 12:33:23 PM EST

By the modern definition, the various races aren't even the same species - I mean, if wolves, coyotes and red wolves are different "species" when they routinely interbreed and produce offspring that also interbreed, then why are all the varieties of humans considered one?

But, in the end, it's irrelevant - "species" and "race" may be more than "social constructs" but creating distinctions between groups of people simply causes too many problems to merit a place is politics.

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The choice between the customary and the real... by chuckles (2.00 / 0) #2 Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 02:38:29 PM EST

If it can be proven through science that there is more to "race" than a mere social construct, and our political system can't handle this fact, then there is something wrong with our political system. Our political system is certainly a social construct, and in a collision between it and the reality of race, clinging to a flawed system makes as much sense as the Creationist arguments against evolution.

The coming public discourse on race is going to be uncomfortable for many, especially when sequencing of the human genome becomes cheap and easy. We would be much further along if people hadn't wasted so much effort denying that race exists. Perhaps it would be more fruitful for people who are race-deniers today to instead promote a coherent philosophy that explains why, despite our differences, we are all entitled to a basic set of human rights.

"The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin [...] would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities"

[ Parent ]

Let me guess -- you don't like minorities? by theboz (2.00 / 0) #3 Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 09:21:47 PM EST

If it can be proven through science that there is more to "race" than a mere social construct, and our political system can't handle this fact, then there is something wrong with our political system.

The thing is, the article you quoted put Europeans into several different "races", which distinguished some genetic differences but didn't account for things like intelligence, violent tendencies, etc. which most of the pseudo-intellectual racists try to use against those of non-European ancestry. It's still bullshit though, and your post indicates that you don't think people deserve equal rights.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n

[ Parent ]

What I like or dislike isn't important. by chuckles (2.00 / 0) #4 Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 10:30:32 PM EST

... the article you quoted put Europeans into several different "races", which distinguished some genetic differences ...

It did, didn't it? The subject of intra-European genetic differences sounds like an interesting topic, and I look forward to reading the results of more research.

... but didn't account for things like intelligence, violent tendencies, etc. ...

True, but that wasn't the point of the study. The study showed a correlation between DNA structure and national origin. This compliments an earlier study showing how trivial it was to predict ancestral continent of origin using only 50 randomly selected SNPs. The researchers in the earlier study tasked a computer with no pre-conceived notion of race to find clusters within the samples, and those clusters correlated to self-reported ancestral continent of origin with greater than 95% accuracy.

It appears that race is real.

... your post indicates that you don't think people deserve equal rights.

That wasn't the point of my comment, nor is it something I believe, although we may differ on what "rights" all humans possess. I was merely suggesting that many people were wasting resources promoting a wrong idea: "race is merely a social construct".

"The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin [...] would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities"

[ Parent ]

You're attacking a straw man by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #5 Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 11:17:06 PM EST

Your argument seems to be that physical anthropologists say there are no genetic differences between what are socially accepted as distinct races, and that only you and your buddies at stormfront are smart enough to see through the lie.

Now instead of the straw man, look at the American Anthropological Association Statement on "Race", which says:

Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them.

They never said that there are no genetic differences between what are socially defined as "races", just that the differences are relatively small compared with intra-"racial" variation.

Your study doesn't tell us anything that's new or shocking: just what is already known. Furthermore, by drawing distinctions between Norwegians and Swedes, though those groups are socially accepted as being the same "race", it bolsters the idea that the social definitions of races do not correspond to genetic reality.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]

: Lewontin's fallacy by chuckles (2.00 / 0) #8 Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 01:17:27 PM EST

is debunked here [64 KB PDF]:
In popular articles that play down the genetical differences among human populations, it is often stated that about 85% of the total genetical variation is due to individual differences within populations and only 15% to differences between populations or ethnic groups. It has therefore been proposed that the division of Homo sapiens into these groups is not justified by the genetic data. This conclusion, due to R.C. Lewontin in 1972, is unwarranted because the argument ignores the fact that most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors.

As for attacking a straw man...

only you and your buddies at stormfront are smart enough

... what do you suppose you were doing there?

"The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin [...] would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities"
[ Parent ]

Oh noes, the sciences is racist! by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #7 Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 11:14:47 PM EST

Interrelated people from the same place are more like each other than interrelated people from a different place!
Please provide evidence for why a political discourse on race along these definitions is necessary? Lots of things that are genetically determined are politically irrelevant.

[ Parent ]

Agreed. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #6 Sun Nov 23, 2008 at 04:13:22 PM EST

Norwegians are just fine. Swedes are fucking crazy.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

MLP: 'European population structure with 300K SNPs and 6,000 individuals' | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 hidden)


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