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By TheophileEscargot (Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:59:34 AM EST) Reading, Listening, Web (all tags)
Listening: "Age of Pericles". Browsing: Socrates. Reading: "The King's Last Song". Web.

Listening
Finished TTC course Age of Pericles by Jeremy McInerney. 24 lectures. Good course that takes a broad tour around the history, culture, society, economy, philosophy, literature and religion of the period. I think in some ways it's a bit of a deceptive period to read about. You can read translations of their texts and concepts look familiar, but are really very different to what we think. McInerney's very good on pointing out things like that: for instance that their concept of freedom is very different to our own. To them, freedom was a status: a privilege held by certain classes: they had no concept of freedom as a universal right.

McInerney's also good on explaining the underside of Athenian society: highlighting minor parts of the records to show what slavery was like, the position of women was like, how the Delian League became a fairly oppressive Athenian Empire.

He does balance that carefully against their positive achievements. The Athenian Democracy here seems like a very new and fragile thing: hastily created as a response to crisis, repeatedly being overturned and returned to. It doesn't seem realistic to think that it could have been wider.

He also gives a more objective account of the execution of Socrates than philosophers tend to. Athens was undergoing something of a fundamentalist religious revival, in the context of which Socrates religious ideas, once tolerated, now seemed threatening; and also that the Thirty Tyrants were linked to Socrates, as was the despised Alcibiades.

Overall, worth a listen. Though it doesn't have time to go into great depth, it's a good course to put things in context.

Next up is the same lecturer on Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Age.

What I'm Browsing Through
Been dabbling a bit. Listened to a single TTC lecture on the Socratic dialogue the Symposium. Turns out most of the dialogues are intentionally crap, being supposed to be ironic reflections of the moral failings of the speakers. Also Socrates is making snarky backhanded insults at everyone that they don't notice.

Also had a quick look through Xenophon's Memorable Thoughts of Socrates. First thought is that Xenophon's Socrates isn't as different from Plato's as I'd expected. He's definitely using the same Socratic method: asking questions and casting doubt on assumptions.

The Xenophonic Socrates seems like a very much more down-to-earth character though. He seems to be more like a Hellenic agony aunt, dishing out practical career advice and health and dating tips. I like the way he gently persuades Glaucon not to try to run the state until he knows a bit about it and can handle his own business. Xenophonic Socrates seems less snide, less arrogant and more likeable that Platonic Socrates. However:

Know that a beautiful person is a more dangerous animal than scorpions, because these cannot wound unless they touch us; but beauty strikes at a distance: from what place soever we can but behold her, she darts her venom upon us, and overthrows our judgment.
Quite like his design tips too.
"And do you think," replied Socrates, "that the good and the beautiful are different? Know you not that the things that are beautiful are good likewise in the same sense? It would be false to say of virtue that in certain occasions it is beautiful, and in others good. When we speak of men of honour we join the two qualities, and call them excellent and good. In our bodies beauty and goodness relate always to the same end. In a word, all things that are of any use in the world are esteemed beautiful and good, with regard to the subject for which they are proper."

"At this rate you might find beauty in a basket to carry dung," said Aristippus.

"Yes, if it be well made for that use," answered Socrates; "and, on the contrary, I would say that a buckler of gold was ugly if it was ill-made."

What I'm Reading 2
Two-thirds through Geoff Ryman's The King's Last Song. It tells several intertwined stories in Cambodia. Legendary king Jayavarman's autobiography is discovered, and his life story is mixed in with current events and recollections of the civil war.

Pretty disappointed by it. Have had it on the go for ages without feeling much incentive to pick it up. The Cambodian characters seem patronizing and ill-drawn, especially the way they seem to idolize Western archeologist Luc. All the interactions between them are full of varieties of smiles and what they indicate: Ryman doesn't seem to have got much beyond Cambodians as cute-smiley-people.

I read Haing Ngor's autobiography Surviving the Killing Fields a while back and it didn't seem to have much smiling at all. That seems to be a much better book for understanding Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

I wonder if it shows that Ryman is still an SF writer at heart. It does seem to be a characteristic of SF writers to write "what I did on my holidays" fiction where a holiday becomes a backdrop. I think that works better in SF where things don't have to be strictly accurate though.

Me
Going to Iceland for a few days, leaving Thursday. It's an organized tour, going with a mate of mine. Kind of dreading it really. Yeah, it seemed like a really great idea back in July, but now I'm just thinking it's going to be Too Damn Cold.

Web
Sarcasm. Design patterns, Make my logo bigger cream (long video).

Economics: Good news on the gender gap.

H2G2 goes through all Ian Dury's reasons to be cheerful.

How programmers stopped one woman's quest to live without a surname.

< My waiter was not Peruvian. | BBC White season: 'Rivers of Blood' >
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Poll
Which is more beautiful?
- A well-made basket to carry dung 66%
- An ill-made buckler of gold 33%
- - 0%
- Historical Socrates was mostly Xenophonic 33%
- Historical Socrates was mostly Platonic 0%
- Historical Socrates was like neither 0%
- Historical Socrates was like both 0%

Votes: 3
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- Age of Pericles
- Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Age
- Memorable Thoughts of Socrates
- Design patterns
- Make my logo bigger cream
- Good news on the gender gap
- reasons to be cheerful
- live without a surname
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Something nice to study | 63 comments (63 topical, 0 hidden)
Surname woman by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #1 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:37:45 AM EST
How far up herself is she?

I could choose to have "BIG DOGS COCK" tattooed across my forehead if I wanted.  But I'd realise that going so far from mainstream culture would cause many problems, all of which would have been of my own making.

If you step outside the cultural norms of society, have the bollocks to accept that things may be more difficult.


But by her account by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #2 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:43:45 AM EST
She used to have no problem with it, but as computerization has increased, surnames have become mandatory.

So, it's not that she's stepped outside the cultural norms of society, but that the cultural norms of society have narrowed until she's found herself on the outside.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
World changes by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #3 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 02:04:56 AM EST
News at Ten.


[ Parent ]
World stays the same. by ambrosen (4.00 / 2) #7 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 04:18:07 AM EST
News at 10.30. 11? 9?

When is the news on nowadays?

[ Parent ]
Not unusual story by Phage (4.00 / 1) #4 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 02:55:29 AM EST
I know several people who have problems defining sur-name from their group of names. Sometimes I think Patry/Matry/nomics are the best solution.

[ Parent ]
I don't believe a word of that by komet (4.00 / 2) #5 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 03:00:00 AM EST
I have a bona fide surname, but it has been clogging up bank and state computers since the 70s because they expect a surname to consist of at least 3 characters.

It's also particularly prone to mess up ill-advised search-and-replace.

--
<ni> komet: You are functionally illiterate as regards trashy erotica.

[ Parent ]
No, I don't think so by Cloaked User (4.00 / 2) #8 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 04:41:12 AM EST
I don't think cultural norms have changed, it's just that automated systems now blindly enforce them where before humans could just shrug and leave the surname field blank, as the sheet of paper couldn't refuse to allow it.

It's also not generally the programmers' fault; I don't get to pick and choose what requirements I implement. If the spec says "surname (mandatory)" then if it isn't, it gets raised as a bug and I'm expected to fix it.


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.

[ Parent ]
But it seems pretty clear by TheophileEscargot (4.00 / 1) #9 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 04:55:13 AM EST
That in this case, computers are enforcing a greater degree of conformity.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
[ Parent ]
Oh absolutely by Cloaked User (4.00 / 2) #12 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 05:03:35 AM EST
But it's not because society has changed, it's because a previously unwritten assumption ("Everyone has a surname") has been codified into a set of rules in a subtly different form ("Everyone must have a surname").


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.
[ Parent ]
They have to by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #13 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 06:30:42 AM EST
Computers, by definition, are blind rules followers.  She got away with it before because people aren't blind rules followers, and can bend the rules on a whim.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
I agree with computers, disagree with people by lm (4.00 / 1) #21 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 08:59:22 AM EST
The problem is that programmers made an assumption that isn't universal and, consequently, made a de facto requirement where non existed before.

It is true that in most of the western tradition, that people have at least two parts and no more than three parts to their name. But this isn't universal. Parts of Europe have metric gajillions parts to their names. First name. Christian name. Confirmation name. Patronymic. Maiden Name. Married Name. Large parts of South America tend to follow conventions closer to this than the US practice. Most US software doesn't handle these situations any better. I'd not be surprised if UK software was mostly in the same boat.

And it's not like this is even that difficult of a situation to handle programatically. In most cases it's usually a question of laziness or ignorance. All you need is a sequence of records to store name parts rather than keeping first and last names in a single record as if they were the only possible name portions.

Kindness is an act of rebellion.
[ Parent ]
Bad assumptions aren't cultural by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #25 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:26:16 PM EST
As Komet noted, lots of software doesn't handle his name and his name follows generally accepted cultural conventions.

In the more general case, I'm not sure you *can* create a system that deals well with all possible naming schemes in the world and yet still follow the local naming schemes. Just "sort by last name" opens up all sorts of issues. If a name is just a sequence of strings, how do I sort by last name? (Especially given that in western culture, a last name can be more than one text string.)

The thing about older systems is that a person can fudge it. Computers require everything to be planned for.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
It's not that hard of a problem by lm (4.00 / 1) #28 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:56:45 PM EST
First, we aren't necessarily speaking of all the various naming conventions in use throughout the entire world. (Although, that is a consideration if your software product is going to be international.) What we're speaking of is naming conventions in use just within one country. In the article TE linked to, it was the UK. In my argument, it's the US. In my locality, there is no law concerning of what a name ought to consist. There are, however, quite a few various conventions. Most of the Catholics descended from Germans in the area have at least three names at birth (first, middle, last) and then are given a fourth at confirmation. But then there are also a growing number of Catholic immigrants from Brazil, Peru and other South American countries that have far more expansive traditions. Then we have immigrants from Asia, people who want to change their name to 400 because that's how much they can bench lift, self styled artists who want to go by a single moniker, and others. And this is all in the heartland. I'd imagine that in a really cosmopolitan area, their would be even more.

Second, show me an example outside of the likes of the unpronouncable glyph that was at one point in time the legal name of The Artist Formerly Known as Prince (I do think restricting names to a given alphabet is a reasonable assumption) that would not fit into the paradigm of using a table where every persons name is one or more records consisting of person identifier, name value, name display order, name sort order where person identifier identifies a unique person, name value represents the value of the name, name display order identifies the order in which names for a particular person identifier ought to be displayed and sort order identifies in what order the name records should be used when creating a list.

We're not dealing with a hard CS problem here. The logic is actually simpler than leap year calculations. But just like I've seen code that figures leap year by whether a year is evenly divisible by 4, programmers being lazy from time to time, few people put much thought into it.

Kindness is an act of rebellion.
[ Parent ]
The Artist Formerly Known As Prince by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #35 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 04:53:55 PM EST
is now known as Prince.
--
Heat, pressure, and time: the three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.
[ Parent ]
Be that as it may ... by lm (2.00 / 0) #46 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:32:05 AM EST
He is also still the Artist Formerly Known as Prince even if he is presently known at Prince and will always be such until such time as someone invents a time machine and goes back in time prior to him no longer being known as Prince and killing him.
Kindness is an act of rebellion.
[ Parent ]
No by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #47 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:10:59 AM EST
He got his name back. His name is Prince.

No one calls Mohammed Ali "Formerly known as Cassius Clay" and no one calls Cary Grant "Formerly known as Archibald Leach".

His name is Prince.
--
The three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.

[ Parent ]
But ... by lm (2.00 / 0) #54 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:02:58 AM EST
... many people still refer to Prince as The Artist Formerly Known as Prince. (Just search Google news for that string.) Consequently, an argument based on common usage (as your other examples implies you're making) fails.
Kindness is an act of rebellion.
[ Parent ]
It's not an example by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #60 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:53:05 AM EST
it's a fact.
--
The three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.
[ Parent ]
Facts are neither here nor there by lm (2.00 / 1) #61 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 11:23:34 AM EST
Unless you were using your fact as examples illustrate an analogous situation, it is an irrelevant fact. Unlike the examples you made, many people still refer to Prince as The Artist Formerly Known as Prince. Don't take my word for it. Search Google News to find such articles from 2007 that say things like:

To paraphrase the artist formerly known as Prince – which is a novelty for the financial pages – they say we have all partied like it was 1999, but now we must scrimp and save like it was 1929.

Kindness is an act of rebellion.
[ Parent ]
A minor point by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #37 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:03:12 AM EST
But I don't generally invent requirements; if the spec says a given field is mandatory, I make it mandatory. If it doesn't, I don't.

Generally (in my experience) it's the client or some sort of business analyst or information architect that says what's mandatory and for that matter what fields are displayed, the programmers just do what they're told.

It is true that in most of the western tradition, that people have at least two parts and no more than three parts to their name.

No more than 3 parts? By that do you mean one first name, one middle name, one surname? If so then I'm an exception (2 middle names), as is my brother (ditto), my daughter (ditto) and several of my friends; I used to know a guy with 3 middle names.

In the paper-form world, I often don't have enough space to enter my full name, or both my middle initials. In fact I often don't bother trying.


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.

[ Parent ]
I don't have a middle name by lm (2.00 / 0) #40 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 02:14:31 AM EST
That gives lots of banks fits. Sometimes they make one up for me. Of course there are exceptions. Hence, use of `most' rather than `all.'

Also, I ought to have said Anglophonic rather than Western.

Kindness is an act of rebellion.
[ Parent ]
Cultural norms by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #14 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 06:40:38 AM EST
They didn't really narrow.  Not having a surname was never part of the cultural norm.  If it was, she wouldn't have had to explain it every time she met someone new.  It's just that human beings can say "Whatever!" when encountering someone full of themselves.  Computers can't.


I find her intensely irritating.  There's something massively self-indulgent about her "stand".  I'd think that if she was really concerned with "vanishing from the genealogical tree, as has been the fate of significant numbers of women", she'd follow the lead of societies that already deal with this better and name herself something like "Margaret Sandra DorithysDaughter" or something like that.  Can't say what exactly...this woman so concerned with the vanishing of women's names from the genealogical record very tellingly forgets to ever mention her own mother's name.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Surnames by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #15 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 06:52:21 AM EST
Surnames were originally confined to the aristocracy, who needed to remind people which family they were from. They gradually spread to other classes between the 13th and 17th centuries.

I think it's interesting that that kind of organic cultural change is made much more difficult by computers and their rigid rules.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure that's the case by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #17 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 07:04:53 AM EST
Do you think a woman in Victorian England could have gotten away with changing her name to "Margaret Sandra DorithysDaughter"?


This one woman's attempt doesn't really represent "organic cultural change".  It represents one woman trying to swim like a salmon against the cultural current.  I suspect that when there truly is "organic cultural change", the software designers that are part of that culture will change the software.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
A woman in Victorian England by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #18 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 07:27:44 AM EST
Would have been known by her husband's entire name prefixed with Mrs I believe, like Mrs John Smith.

Since Victorians didn't have computers, they were able to gradually start using their own first names instead.

Otherwise I suspect their Analytical Engines would probably have had cylinder-arrays for husband's Christian name and husband's surname only, and they'd have had to stick with it.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
I don't believe that's the case by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #19 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 07:53:13 AM EST
I suspect that as the cultural gradually changed, analytical engine vendors would have changed their software.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
I can't see how that would happen by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #20 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 08:01:58 AM EST
It wouldn't be worth changing the software (or hardware here) until a significant fraction of people have changed their habits.

But this kind of change has to be started by someone. There has to be some mad eccentric who wants to be called Mrs Margaret Smith instead of Mrs John Smith, and then a trickle of slightly less eccentric followers until the change becomes widespread.

Computers put a huge barrier in front of the early adopters, which makes gradual organic change practically impossible.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
I'm fairly certain by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #26 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:36:57 PM EST
That that particular change came with the feminist movement, with a whole lot of women all at once demanding not to be referred to by their husband's name, and generally making a bit stink about it.


I'm also fairly certain the usage of the word "Ms." postdates the storage of computer records.


The number of separate applications that deal with name is immense, and many of them are broken.  The average lifespan of such apps is probably 5-15 years.  It is not that hard to imagine these apps being slowly changed as the culture changes.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
I'm certain it was a gradual change by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #29 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:05:04 PM EST
Preceding the feminist movement of the Seventies.

For instance, in the article itself she refers to her mother using husband's-Christian-name, so it was obviously a generation earlier.

Secondly, while it's a US site, if you look at this obituary search page for 1950 to 2007, it says: "married women are sometimes listed under their husband's first name, not their own, especially in the earlier years." Therefore for the US at least, this was a gradual change over decades, not a sudden mass protest.

I don't think it's likely that this change would be introduced even if an app is rewritten. The existing data and data models tend to be preserved.

But even if that did happen, it would mean the earliest adopters have to live for 5 to 15 years without using banking services before software companies start rewriting their systems to fit. That's a huge disincentive, which precludes any gradual, organic cultural change.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
"without using banking services" by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #30 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:09:25 PM EST
You overstate the difficulty. "Margaret Sandra" can certainly use banking services. She just has to bitch about how they treat her name incorrectly.

I'd also argue that modern Western society is, by far, the most flexible with regards to odd naming decisions.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Not if she wants to achieve her purpose by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #31 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:18:01 PM EST
She could use the banking service by filling in a name in the patriarchal format. But firstly, this means the software companies have no incentive to rewrite their apps as you suggested, since they've already got her business.

More importantly, the surname she puts down will be interpreted as a husband or father name, which means she's not reducing the degree of patriarchal hegemony.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
"purpose" by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #32 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 01:34:25 PM EST
If enough people complained about it, then yes, there'd be change. Software certainly is changed because customers call on complaint lines. "Ms." certainly didn't come about because of some slow, organic change where people gradually started using it. It came about because a group of feminists got together and started loudly complaining about it.

One person can't, of course, change a culture. This has nothing to do with computers. This woman is trying to couch her own, lone idiosyncratic choice as some battle of the sexes.

If her problem is with the surname being interpreted as a husband or father name, then her beef is not with the software that has a surname field. Her beef is with all the people doing the interpreting. Changing *that* has nothing to do with software.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Ms by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #33 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 02:05:09 PM EST
According to Wikipedia, Ms was started by one person, Sheila Michaels, in 1961. However, it wasn't till 1984 that former opponent William Safire accepted it. So that's about 20 years even for a fast change.

You're basically putting a very high barrier in place, saying "Yes, you can define your own name... but only if you can persuade millions of other people to do the same thing overnight, with no precedent, and even then we'll take 5 to 15 years to implement it".

Cultural shifts take time, start small, and spread from person to person.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
A change by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #34 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 02:14:47 PM EST
That happened after computerized records were common.

The barrier is same as it ever was. You don't have to do it "overnight". You have to convince millions of people of it, then the systems will change. But that's the way it was in the days of paper records as well.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
But by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #36 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 11:47:35 PM EST
Computers weren't nearly as prevalent in that period, particularly before the microcomputer became affordable in the 1980s.

I think I'm beginning to repeat myself here, but while ultimately millions of people have to be persuaded, it's a lot harder for that to happen as a massive simultaneous step change, than to happen gradually over decades as the idea spreads from person to person.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
And yet... by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #43 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:09:56 AM EST
Computers via the internet can help these people coalesce into lobby groups!


[ Parent ]
Can they? by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #44 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:21:26 AM EST
Computers and the Internet can act as another way to help people organize into lobby groups.

But does that actually work any better than mimeographed newsletters and local meetings? It could be Internet groups are counterproductive, encouraging people to join closed, groupthink virtual communities that don't do anything except make themselves feel superior; while local groups force activists to deal with unconverted people and spread their message to them.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
They can. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #45 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:30:43 AM EST
The glass is half full, TheophileEscargot!


[ Parent ]
In my experience by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #49 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:31:11 AM EST
Local groups of activists are even more insular.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
I think we're both repeating ourself by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #48 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:30:31 AM EST
I disagree that there has to be a massive simultaneous step.  I think you're confusing the system being ready for the change and people trying to make the change.  Clearly this woman, despite wanting to make a change that is utterly batshit and illogical, has not been deterred by the technology.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
She says she is being deterred by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #56 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:06:07 AM EST
Now, 28 years later, at the age of 64, I am feeling under pressure. Computers, I am told, just cannot cope.
I don't see why her change is more batshit and illogical than the introduction of Ms, or the change from Mrs John Smith to Mrs Margaret Smith.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
[ Parent ]
Because by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #58 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:54:11 AM EST
"Mrs. Margaret Smith" is pretty obviously different from Mrs. John Smith"


And yes, she's a typical spoiled boomer...wants to change the world, but doesn't want it to be difficult.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
I don't buy that it's a patriarchal format by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #39 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:18:57 AM EST
Yes, I inherited my surname from my father. But what if I later changed it to something else by deed poll? Something totally made up, like Zfdgmdf (or the eponymous Yorkshire Bank Are Bastards)? Would that still be patriarchal? If so, why? If not, then why is the form "first name, surname" patriarchal?


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.
[ Parent ]
I think people would just assume by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #42 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:07:54 AM EST
That your father's or husband's name was Zfdgmdf.

Even if you changed your name to "Mrs I-Reject-Patriarchal-Surnames", you would still be defining your identity in relation to it, even if negatively.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
The trouble by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #51 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:38:34 AM EST
Is that people assume cultural conventions, regardless.  That's what they are: assumptions.  Which is why people call this woman "Mrs. Sandra".  That's not a problem that can be solved with naming conventions.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
But by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #53 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:54:48 AM EST
I suspect even you would agree that the change from "Mrs John Smith" to "Mrs Margaret Smith" is worthwhile... since you're used to it.

Sixty years ago, you'd probably have been equally vigorously opposed to that change.

I think it's pretty clear that there is a hostility to feminism amongst male programmers. Therefore it seems likely to me that they (consciously or unconsciously) use their applications and database schemas to enforce their views onto the wider population.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
Holy Ad Hominem batman! by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #55 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:04:57 AM EST
The current naming scheme certainly allows no end in feminist naming schemes.  My own mother went back to her maiden name for feminist reasons and had no real issues with it.


If this woman would just say "Sandra" was her surname, she'd have no problems.  Her issue has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with typical baby boomer "ME ME ME" demands to be the center of attention.


Your statement is both offensive and wrong-minded.  You should damn well know that programmers generally have very little say in defining how names are stored.

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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
I don't see how that's ad hominem by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #57 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:11:17 AM EST
I observed a general tendency, and didn't even name anyone.

Maybe we mean different things by "programmer", but I've when building a new system, I've usually had a great deal of control over how names are stored. Usually when building a new system I've designed a new database schema from scratch. It's only when upgrading or migrating data from an existing system that the data structure has to remain the same.

Anyway, I've got to go to Iceland soon so will have to abandon this for the time being.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
You named me. by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #59 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:55:44 AM EST
I doubt you could have forced through a special feature, which would take extra time, testing, etc., to make the system allow names to be marked for special sorting.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Yup, you got me by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #62 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:10:13 PM EST
I like nothing better than to increase my own workload by making up requirements for myself to implement. The testers are in it with me - that's how come they make it through QA. And the client (or they wouldn't get through UAT).

Seriously, I challenge you to find any evidence at all of a higher incidence of surnames being made mandatory by male programmers than by female, when it is up to them.


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.

[ Parent ]
Do I look like someone by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #63 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:12:21 PM EST
Who cares what people assume about me?

Besides, she is defining her identity in relation to not having a surname.

Like I said, I can understand her point about not wanting to be defined as her father's daughter, or her husband's wife. I just don't see how having a surname of her own choosing would do that.



--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.

[ Parent ]
How was by Scrymarch (2.00 / 0) #52 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:51:13 AM EST
... Mary Wollstonecraft known in her day?

The Political Science Department of the University of Woolloomooloo
[ Parent ]
I remember reading once by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #38 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:08:23 AM EST
That surnames originally started to be used as settlement sizes grew to the point that a first name alone wasn't enough to uniquely identify a person.


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.
[ Parent ]
Civilizations by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #50 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:35:44 AM EST
Most large civilizations have some sort of surname system.  It seems to be something that independently develops.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
I wish she hadn't ducked the children issue by Cloaked User (4.00 / 1) #11 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 04:59:15 AM EST
I actually fully support her views (as reported, at least) on women taking their husband's name, which I've always been somewhat uneasy about. I don't see why both people don't change their surname to something they agree on between themselves; why keep either? Solves the problem of what to call the kids too.

I don't really get the issue with having her father's surname though. So does every male child, but she doesn't seem to object on my behalf.


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.

[ Parent ]
Iceland's great in May/June by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #6 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 03:29:44 AM EST
Never gets dark, pretty warm.

Bad time of year to go now as it'll be dark pretty much of the time. Don't think it'll be to cold yet though.

An interesting read on Socrates is IF Stone by lm (4.00 / 1) #10 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 04:58:33 AM EST
Stone's The Trial of Socrates is an interesting attempt to recover the historical Socrates by a retired investigative journalist turned amateur classicist. It's quite readable, if not controversial. There is supposed to be a concise scholarly rebuttal of Stone's work but I can't find the reference right now. I suspect its buried beneath random papers on my desk at home.
Kindness is an act of rebellion.
IAWTP by ni (4.00 / 1) #16 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 06:54:30 AM EST
I.F. Stone is spectacular in everything he does, but The Trial of Socratres is well written, well researched, and relatively independent from the academic tradition. Even if it weren't a good book (and it is) it would be an interesting one.


"What woman wouldn't love a guy in WW2 aviator glasses eating their ass?" -- dest
[ Parent ]
woah by R343L (4.00 / 1) #27 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:44:06 PM EST
That isn't the one reviewed the other day linked from aldaily that I was only going to add to librarything if you, lm or bo said it was good. So instead I add this one. Nice.

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot
[ Parent ]
why by misslake (4.00 / 1) #22 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 10:52:51 AM EST
doesn't anyone just offer to put "margaret" in the first name box and "sandra" in the surname box?
or if she really requires her name to be undivided, how about no first name given, "margaret sandra" as surname?

i am reminded of a guy named r.j. i might not have the details right, you'll have to ask 256...
r.j.'s name didn't stand for anything, he wasn't robert james or anything, he was named only "r.j."
when he tried to get a credit card, he kept getting declined, they said they required his full name. he kept trying to explain that his full name was infact "r.j." and the initials didn't stand in for anything. frustrated, he had all his documents together, and had the bank fill in the form: first name R. (only) middle name J. (only) to avoid any further dificulties.
he got his credit card, but it was marked mr. Ronly Jonly


Well by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #23 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 11:06:20 AM EST
That would just mean everyone assumes her husband or father's surname was "Sandra" or "Margaret-Sandra", thus perpetuating the male hegemony over identity.

LOL @ Ronly Jonly
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

[ Parent ]
iceland by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #24 Wed Oct 31, 2007 at 12:17:36 PM EST
Went at the end of October last year. It is fantastic. Atmospheric like nowhere else on earth. Though your hair will probably freeze at the Blue Lagoon.

Tattoo a barcode on everyone at birth. by herbert (4.00 / 2) #41 Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 02:47:19 AM EST
PROBLEM SOLVED.

Something nice to study | 63 comments (63 topical, 0 hidden)

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