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Working life

By calla (Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 03:20:02 PM EST) working for the man, assholes (all tags)

I just got a detailed e-mail message from the art director of a medium sized print shop. I interviewed with her last week.

She tells me how I had the most experience of any of the applicants. She tells me that I would have been great for the job. She then mentions that another candidate had experience in a small print shop and he wasn't late for his interview. So they hired him.

Yes, I was late. I took the wrong exit on the highway, got terribly lost and I was 30 mins. late. They almost didn't interview me. But my resume is very strong, so they did me a favor and had me waste an hour and a half interviewing with them. If my getting lost was such a big deal, maybe they should have told me on the phone not to bother coming in, instead of spending 15 mins. on the phone helping me get un-lost.

The art director did mention after the interview that she's always late for work. If she's scheduled for 8:00 - she won't show up until 8:30. (Isn't that a strange thing for her to confess?)

Why did she send a f**king detailed message of why she didn't hire me, instead of a standard form message saying "Thanks for applying, but we hired someone else"? Is she not only a lesbian, but a sadist?

I can't help but hope that the guy they hired doesn't have a clue about color correction for 4-color printing.

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adding salt | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 hidden)

Oh Dang. by moonvine (4.00 / 2) #1 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 03:47:09 PM EST

Sorry to hear that : (

Hope your luck improves... the perfect job being right around the corner and all that.

Thanks. by calla (4.00 / 1) #2 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 03:51:45 PM EST

I didn't really expect sympathy. I expected more of a flamewar about being late for an interview.

Thanks

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

interviews are very arbitrary by MillMan

(4.00 / 2) #3 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:01:37 PM EST

although a bad first impression doesn't help, obviously. Also, for all you know they hired him because he looked like he could be pushed around or asked for half the money.

Everybody still hates me in this city and I hate everybody.

[ Parent ]

or he might have been gay. by calla (2.00 / 0) #11 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:01:17 PM EST

It is a lesbian run shop.

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

: I hope they bought some of our equipment by georgeha (4.00 / 1) #15 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:54:18 PM EST

we could use some mileage from being so LGTG friendly.
Sorry to hear that you didn't get the job, it is an odd note.

[ Parent ]

Sorry to hear it. by ana

(4.00 / 2) #4 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:04:25 PM EST

Something will turn up. Just see if it doesn't.

Can you introspect out loud? --CRwM

Shit happens. by Canthros (4.00 / 2) #5 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:07:58 PM EST

I think my being 1 minute late to an interview contributed to my not getting one job (I think the VP, who was one of the interviewers, being a jerk with very specific, unenumerated ideas about who they should hire had a lot to do with it, too). That's life.

The note about her being late was probably supposed to be an expression of sympathy, but that does sound terribly asinine. My sympathy. Took me forever to find someplace that'd hire me (then it took forever for them to do so--I've promised to write something about that, I'd really better do it soon), and now half the team is leaving (it's coincidental, actually). :S

The rest of the note (the why, that is) is probably intended to be advice. "Hey, next time, don't accidentally be late!" I love advice like that (I don't). Leave some (more) extra time in the future, but don't sweat it too much. (If you show up way early, wait in the car until an appropriate time.)

FWIW, I find it helpful to scout places out ahead of time if I'm not familiar with the area. Better luck next time, I guess.

--
I'm ~~not~~ here, man.

Also, by Canthros (4.00 / 1) #6 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:09:37 PM EST

apologies if I'm sounding pedantic. I probably am, but it's not intentional.

--
I'm ~~not~~ here, man.

[ Parent ]

When I was in the hiring position by moonvine (4.00 / 3) #8 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:31:21 PM EST

I was pretty inflexible about hiring late interviewees... but at the same time, if they had compelling reasons for their tardiness I have given them that extra chance, always to regret it later. Usually, being late is telling of future performance and in an interview we have to make split decisions based on appearances. And of course there are exceptions, and those that I have encountered have been amazing.

And now, presently, as an interviewee, I appreciate lax employers = ) Just last week I was late by about forty two minutes and was offered the job, (my excuse of getting lost was accepted, and I generally rock interviews). I didn't really want to work there, (surely that had something to do with being late). I therefore waited for an offer from a place I did want to work at,(arriving fifteen minutes Early for the interview and dressed to the nines), and rejected the job I was late for. It might have been subconscious, (my tardiness). That's all I have to say about this issue.

[ Parent ]

I hate all the little shit by calla (2.00 / 0) #13 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:10:55 PM EST

that people evaluate when interviewing. The shit that doesn't matter. Like shoes. There's a whole f*cked up group of interviewers out there that consider the interviewee's shoes as a valid part of the interview process. Or the car interview folks - where the condition of a potential employee's car is considered when hiring.

I live in an area that has truly f*cked up traffic. I've lived with f*cked up traffic before, folks were much more tolerant of tardiness there. I guess getting caught in a traffic jam would make me a crappy designer here. I was a pretty good designer in Jersey.

Explain your illogic.

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

When I say appearance by moonvine (4.00 / 2) #14 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:36:21 PM EST

I don't mean dress per say. I mean evaluation based on attendance, (which can only be measured by your punctuality), manner of speech, how you answer the questions, etc... If you look presentable, and aren't looking homeless and ragged, and at the very least showered, then all is good with respect to physical appearance. And generally, I could care less about branding or style.

If your area is notoriously congested with traffic, then ALL the more reason to PLAN ahead. Relying on the laxness and understanding of bosses to excuse tardiness just seems risky. And not willing to understand that to some people punctuality is just as important as a potential hiree's qualifications, seems to me unwise.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't find fault with her decision. She may also not be what is compatible for you in terms of what you would like to see in a boss, so consider yourself fortunate that you saw this side of her way ahead of time. There will be better positions that will come available for you, I am certain. Maybe in an environment not so rigid or what you deem arbitrary. Count your blessings and move on.

So dear Calla, pardon me if I came across in any way that offended you, I just wanted to convey that I relate to both sides of the issue. And more importantly, I'm not going to participate in your hopes for a little flame war. Plus you already have my sympathies!

[ Parent ]

Who said I hoped for a flame war? by calla (2.00 / 0) #19 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 09:11:21 PM EST

I have no interest in flame wars and resent your putting those words in my mouth.

I don't really care to explain to you the reasons I didn't have more time to get to the interview. Let's just say that even though my current job is crappy - I'm a responsible employee.

Use whatever petty reasons you want to hire folks. I'm sure you'll be happy with whoever you hire.

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

That was a very mean thing to write. by moonvine (4.00 / 1) #26 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:29:09 AM EST

I was only trying to be helpful and symphathetic to you, which I indicated in my first comment. I must have taken your original response about a flame war to mean that you "expected a flame war." My bad. I'm sure you're responsible and would make a terrific employee. Seriously, I wasn't attacking you.
Godd luck.

[ Parent ]

I don't see where I said anything mean. by calla (4.00 / 1) #40 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:14:34 PM EST

Except the word 'petty' could possibly be seen as surly. I wouldn't let that get you upset.

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

: Oh, by moonvine (2.00 / 0) #46 Sat Jul 29, 2006 at 08:02:01 AM EST

That's o-k. I didn't lose a wink of sleep over it. Just surprised at your responses to me. The west coast usually mellows people ; )

[ Parent ]

I'm pretty sure this is a troll, but what the hell by Bob Abooey (4.00 / 3) #7 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:15:12 PM EST

I'm real anal about this stuff because I used to get to interview and hire people and if someone was late I wouldn't give them a second look. That's just the way it was with me. If I can't count on you to make it on time for an interview then I can't count on you to get the Mallory project done on time either, I don't care about your excuses.

If the interview is important I make a dry run a few days before to make sure I know how to get there and to get a feel for how long it takes.
Plan to get there at least a half hour early and hang out at the local coffee shop, or park, or whatever, then buzz over to the interview about 10 minutes beforehand.

It sounds like maybe she thought she was doing you a favour by telling you why she didn't hire you. That's actually a pretty decent thing to do. Tough love and all that.

Anyways, when one door closes another door opens, it's always darkest just before dawn, when God gives you lemons make leomade, so get out there AND MAKE TODAY THE BEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE!!!

Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob

I would add to your lemonade by moonvine (2.00 / 0) #9 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:42:05 PM EST

mixed with rum and fresh mint. Life can't get any better than that. Lemons and carpe diem, yeah.

[ Parent ]

Free time is not a luxury I currently have. by calla (4.00 / 1) #10 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:00:18 PM EST

I work a lot of overtime, I have 2 kids and a whole apartment to take care of.

I had directions from f*king Mapquest. Mapquest is crap 'round these parts. I've never lived in an area that had such a f*ed up street system.

If I could have left work earlier the day of the interview, I would have. But we're sorely understaffed where I currently work. It's one of the many reasons why I'm trying to ditch them.

It's all easy for those without a family or responsibility to blithely say 'go early' or make time for a dry run beforehand.

Do you still think I'm trolling?

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

Priorities by theboz (4.00 / 2) #16 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 07:38:47 PM EST

If I could have left work earlier the day of the interview, I would have.

Next time, just scream, "OH MY GOD, I JUST SHIT IN MY PANTS AND IT'S BURNING!" and run out of the store to go "home."

Also, it's hard to believe that you didn't have enough notice of the interview to be able to make the dry run beforehand. If they try to schedule an interview without notice, tell them to reschedule it because your current job doesn't let you out early enough. They will understand and appreciate you being courteous to your current employer, since you will be considerate of them too, should you decide to leave.

Also, I think Bob is right about how she sent you the email as a form of constructive criticism. Now you know that the next interviewer will probably appreciate your technical skills and experience, so if you work on timeliness you can probably get the next job.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n

[ Parent ]

All this coming from a man with by calla (2.00 / 0) #20 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 09:21:24 PM EST

how many responsibilities? Have you ever heard of a little thing called 'integrity'? Maybe lying is ok for you, but not for me.

I don't know how things are run in TAXUS, but WA is a right-to-work state, which simply put means there's no employee/employer consideration or courtesy. I've seen coworkers give 3 days notice. They've been leaving like flies at my current employer, and so far nobody has given 2 weeks notice.

Maybe every state isn't as great as your TEXASS.

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

is it reeeeeally necessary by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 1) #33 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:58:48 AM EST

to diss Texas?

[ Parent ]

Texas and theboz are just too easy by calla (2.00 / 0) #39 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:35:18 PM EST

a target.

There's plenty of good Texans. You and clock are great Texans.

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

i doubt clock considers himself a Texan by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #48 Mon Jul 31, 2006 at 04:56:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]

duh. by calla (2.00 / 0) #49 Mon Jul 31, 2006 at 04:38:58 PM EST

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

I too by RapidHamster (4.00 / 1) #50 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 11:22:42 AM EST

am a damn fine Texan.

Also, did you wear a mullet to the interview? I find militant lesbians dig the mullet. Perhaps the guy they hired had a mullet and she just mentioned your being late so that you couldn't sue her for profiling.

I think thats the real reason.

[ Parent ]

: Texans are unique critters, to be sure. by calla (2.00 / 0) #51 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 04:08:25 PM EST

I'm not much for the mullet, I tend to wear a braid.
But thanks for the mullet tip, there's plenty o' lesbos here in the great NW. Next time I hear one o' them is hirin', I'll cut my hair for the interview.
"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256
[ Parent ]

That's what we call "Bullshit" by theboz (2.00 / 0) #44 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:28:41 PM EST

All this coming from a man with how many responsibilities?

I have enough for now, but from what you wrote here it just sounds like you aren't very good at planning and organizing your time.

Have you ever heard of a little thing called 'integrity'? Maybe lying is ok for you, but not for me.

If you can't tell that I wasn't serious in suggesting you run while screaming that you shit your pants, well, I don't know what else to say really. It was a joke. In reality, I would have just said that I have an appointment and needed to leave early. I've done it before, or used a day off to have the whole day available for an interview. It's just time management to think ahead.

I don't know how things are run in TAXUS, but WA is a right-to-work state, which simply put means there's no employee/employer consideration or courtesy.

Almost every state is a right to work state, and it looks like you didn't understand what I was talking about. Let me try to clarify using words you can understand. If a manager interviewing you knows that you are screwing over your current employer, they will think that you will screw them over when the time comes too. Unless that manager is an idiot, of course. Most managers won't hire someone that doesn't give a two week notice or anything like that, and I've obviously worked in more states than you and seen this happen a lot.

I've seen coworkers give 3 days notice.

It depends on the type of job I guess. If you give a 3 day notice at McDonalds, Burger King is likely to hire you anyway. However, a serious job would be different.

They've been leaving like flies at my current employer, and so far nobody has given 2 weeks notice.

There have been times that I've burnt bridges as well, and it is usually due to a horrible working place, so I can understand. However, I still tell the new employer that I need two weeks before I can start, even if I don't give that much notice.

Maybe every state isn't as great as your TEXASS.

It isn't the best state, but it's better than a state where the most famous person from there ate a bullet because he was married to that ugly whore Courtney Love.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n

[ Parent ]

: Planning and organizing. by calla (2.00 / 0) #45 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 08:18:57 PM EST

Who are you? Oh, yeah the guy from TEXas-sumption. Dude, do you ever look outside of your own skull? Why should you when you live in TEXas-sumption? But seriously, why don't you stick with what you know?
As for screwing employers - the lesbian print shop actually asked me if I could start right away if hired, because they needed someone last Tuesday. There's no ethics here - companies and employees are cut-throat.
The following TEXas-sumption actually made me laugh - "I've obviously worked in more states than you". I've had a pretty long career as a designer. I've worked all over this country: Utah, North Carolina, Michigan, California, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and finally Washington. And I've done freelance work in more states. Where's your list?
As for Kurt Cobain - eh, he's just a musician. Texas brought us Mark David Chapman, David Koresh, and Anna Nicole Smith. ugh.
"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256
[ Parent ]

Right On! by Bob Abooey (4.00 / 1) #32 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:03:15 AM EST

I had a breakfast interview once where I met the guy at a Bob Evans restaurant at 7:00 in the morning because we couldn't work out a time during business hours.

It was kind of odd, I was more worried about making noise while eating my food than giving good answers. Maybe that's why I didn't get a second interview with them.

Overall the bottom line is if it's important to you YOU MAKE IT HAPPEN however you have to do it.

Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob

[ Parent ]

So you're currently working?? by Bob Abooey (2.00 / 0) #28 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:15:18 AM EST

That's good, I didn't know you had found something, I think the last diary I read from you you were talking to the people who make fruit boxes.

I understand what it's like to be busy and to have responsibilities but the bottom line is that you're only a victim of your circumstances if you believe that you are.

There are two kinds of people on the planet:

- People who make things happen
- People who have things happen to them

Ultimately we decide which group we are in.

Anyways, it sucks that you blew an opportunity that you thought may have been good for you. We've all been there before so chin up and all that.

Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob

[ Parent ]

wow by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #34 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:00:18 AM EST

those "tapes" really are working their magic, aren't they?

[ Parent ]

: It's all true babe by Bob Abooey (2.00 / 0) #38 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:58:52 AM EST

It's all true.
Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob
[ Parent ]

Where you are wrong is by calla (2.00 / 0) #42 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:24:10 PM EST

that everyone chooses what happens to themselves every day. It's not a you are either one or the other. In every moment there is a choice.

What were you yesterday, Bob? What are you RIGHT NOW, Bob?

"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256

[ Parent ]

How can you make lemonade from lemons? by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #47 Mon Jul 31, 2006 at 03:08:43 AM EST

You need carbonated water, citric acid, flavourings, sodium citrate, sodium saccharin, aspartame and sodium benzoate.

Don't you know anything?

[ Parent ]

Damn by spacejack (4.00 / 2) #12 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 05:09:36 PM EST

But the late for interview flamewars are stupid since only you can know whether or not you really did what was reasonable to get there, and if there were mitigating circumstances.

Anyway, lots of other printshops in the sea. Well, not literally, but lots on land. Okay, maybe not quite as many as in the olden days, but lots of print/design/web production-related shops out there.

Gah... by Skwirl (4.00 / 1) #17 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 07:45:09 PM EST

That sucks. For what it's worth, I can commisserate. This job that was accepting applications until July 28th and that had to push back their start date two months because they couldn't fill it, freaking hired someone already. Grrrrr... I didn't apply earlier because the start date didn't work for me and I didn't find out about the date getting pushed back until recently.

That sucks by Gedvondur (4.00 / 1) #18 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 07:47:46 PM EST

I am a stickler for on-time, but honestly it seems to me that you contacted them and let them know why. You even enlisted their help in navigating to the place.

Late isn't late when the reason is good and everbody knows why on time. That's not late, thats part of the cost of doing business. Its not like they thought that you wouldn't learn the route.

It was asinine of them to tell you that, a kick in the teeth for no reason.

Buck up, lots of opportunity in the print industry. My mother was a graphic artist for 35 years. Hey, if you and ti^ur^ur^ur^ammonical want to move to the mid-west, I could see about hooking you up...

Quad Graphics is reasonably close by as well.....

Gedvondur
"I don't have enough middle fingers to communicate my feelings to you." --clover kicker

: I'll consider. by calla (2.00 / 0) #21 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 09:22:40 PM EST

Only drawback right now is that the Winters are hell up there.
Thanks.
"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256
[ Parent ]

Hey by komet (4.00 / 1) #22 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 11:10:35 PM EST

Suppose you're HR. Sometimes when you interview people, they are all perfectly suited for the job. But you still have to choose one of them. You could toss a coin in that situation. Or you could look at something you don't yourself consider important, like shoes or lateness. You have to choose somehow.

In this case, look at it like the other guy won a prize draw. It's not because you suck, perhaps not even because he sucks less than you; it's just a choice that someone had to make. This, then, would be why they sent you such a detailed rejection letter: to let you know that they don't think you suck, just that they went for someone else.

--
<ni> komet: You are functionally illiterate as regards trashy erotica.

Sorry by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #23 Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 11:43:12 PM EST

....but, you just can't be late for interviews. I've been known to get there an hour early and just hang around outside.

Sorry though, it does suck.

--------
It's political correctness gone mad!

It's ok when it's somewhere nice by gpig (4.00 / 1) #24 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 12:39:11 AM EST

I once arrived in Glasgow centre two hours before an interview, so I went to the Gallery of Modern Art. It would suck to be two hours early to an interview in Basingstoke, but on the other hand (inshallah) I will never have to go to an interview in BBasingstoke.
---
(, ,') -- eep

[ Parent ]

Early by DullTrev (4.00 / 1) #25 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 01:08:29 AM EST

I was three hours early for my first interview in Warrington. God help me.

--
DFJ?

[ Parent ]

I was an hour early for my last one by Bob Abooey (2.00 / 0) #29 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:21:30 AM EST

I went to a Wendy's Restaurant and studied up on Industry related stuff for the company I was interviewing with.

The only real problem with being early is you have more time to get coffay or something on your clothes. I guess taking an spare shirt and tie may even be a wise thing to do.

Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob

[ Parent ]

: I was three hours early by DullTrev (2.00 / 0) #30 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:24:16 AM EST

because I was driving across the country and didn't know what the traffic would be like around Manchester. And the major problem with being that early in Warrington is, well, you're in Warrington.

--
DFJ?
[ Parent ]

Warrington town centre by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #36 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:50:40 AM EST

Caught a 6.30am bus from London to go go-karting (stag do) and had to hang around for two hours in the rain. I seem to remember there was an amusingly-named shopping centre, but that was it.

--------
It's political correctness gone mad!

[ Parent ]

I think by Kellnerin (4.00 / 3) #27 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:42:35 AM EST

it was a misguided attempt to soften the blow, rather than rub it in. But to my mind you did the reasonable thing and got in touch with them when you were running behind, and got back on track as soon as possible. That she would hold that against you while admitting to the exact same problem (again, misguided) -- that sucks.

Sounds to me like she'd be a boss who would hold you to a standard she doesn't expect herself to meet ("You've gotta be here because I won't be"). Or she won't be up front about what she really does or does not like about your work. Either way, she might not be someone you want to work for anyway.

The right job, and the right boss, will come. One day you'll be glad you didn't end up there. I hope that day is soon.

--
"later" meant either "when you walk around the corner" or "oatmeal."

: My mother said something very similar by calla (2.00 / 0) #41 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:20:33 PM EST

today.
I wouldn't be surprised if that art director has difficulty communicating in general. Working with her could be interesting. Just another reason that I'm better off without that job.
Thanks.
"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256
[ Parent ]

decisions decisions by sasquatchan (4.00 / 1) #31 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:26:10 AM EST

not enough comments to VSTFP, yet such an obvious troll I'm struggling to not vote to hole.

What this now needs is a TPS2.0 comment or two, but I think he's moved on to other sites.

: It's not really a troll. by calla (4.00 / 1) #43 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:27:01 PM EST

Sure there are some trolly comments, but the diary is the unmitigated truth.
What do you want from me, LFT style blathering?
"but i have a vested interest in keeping the people who see me naked interested in continuing to see me naked." 256
[ Parent ]

(Comment Deleted) by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #35 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:41:16 AM EST

This comment has been deleted by yicky yacky

: A couple times by Bob Abooey (2.00 / 0) #37 Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:56:25 AM EST

The first one lasted a good week or so. One of the best HuSi steel caged debates IMHO.
Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob
[ Parent ]

adding salt | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 hidden)