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Print Story So how do I get myself an NSK Passport, anyway?
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By MohammedNiyalSayeed (Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:32:32 AM EST) 80s, cars, devo, why i rock, how i rock, that i rock, makin' poops, poops, poop-loving cowwqas, freemasonry, new world order, neue slovakian kunst, washington dc city planning, historical plaigerism, modern plaigerism, historical intellectual property theft, traditions and intellectual property theft, it always ends in tears, todd rundgren sucks ass, pugs (all tags)

Ramblings, and an important poll.


Our National Anthem is a Freemason Drinking Song

Did you know that what is now known as the National Anthem of the United States of America was lifted, musically, in its entirety from the Freemason drinking song, "To Anacreon in Heaven"?

The song was written for the Anacreontic Society, probably around 1771. The tune was was once thought to have been written by Dr Thomas Arnold, but is now thought to have been written "collectively" by members of the society, led by John Stafford Smith (who now usually gets the credit). The society met every two weeks to get drunk, sing songs and to indulge in some debauchery. Anacreon himself was a Greek poet from about 570BC who was noted for his erotic poetry (in the Anacreontic style that he established) and his drinking songs.

It was written and sung at the Crown and Anchor Tavern before Francis Scott Key wrote new words for it in 1814, at which point it became the National Anthem. There are many aspects of this story that are worthy of further examination; the irony of puritanical embrace of the song, the fact that, in essence, the second-most fundamental symbol of our country is, at best, a filk, and at worst, an outright reappropriation of previously existing "intellectual property", and, most entertainingly to me, solid evidence of Masonic influence in the formation of the United States. Were it just a single song taken from Masonic sources, that would be one thing. However, a cursory review of our currency reveals Masonic symbology a-plenty. Take a look at the layout for our nation's capital, for that matter. Or pretty much anything in Washington DC.

          To ANACREON in Heav'n, where he sat in full Glee,
          A few Sons of Harmony sent a Petition,
          That He their Inspirer and Patron wou'd be;
          When this Answer arriv'd from the JOLLY OLD GRECIAN
                        "Voice, Fiddle, and Flute,
                        "No longer be mute,
         "I'll lend you my Name and inspire you to boot,
         "And, besides, I'll instruct you like me, to intwine
         "The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS's Vine.

          The news through OLYMPUS immediately flew;
          When OLD THUNDER pretended to give himself Airs_
          If these Mortals are suffer'd their Scheme to pursue,
          The Devil a Goddess will stay above Stairs.
                            "Hark! already they cry,
                            "In Transports of Joy
         "Away to the Sons of ANACREON we'll fly,
         "And there, with good Fellows, we'll learn to intwine
         "The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS'S Vine.

         "The YELLOW-HAIR'D GOD and his nine fusty Maids
         "From HELICON'S Banks will incontinent flee,
         "IDALIA will boast but of tenantless Shades,
         "And the bi-forked Hill a mere Desart will be
                      "My Thunder, no fear on't,
                      "Shall soon do it's Errand,
         "And, dam'me! I'll swinge the Ringleaders I warrant,
         "I'll trim the young Dogs, for thus daring to twine
         "The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS'S Vine.

          APOLLO rose up; and said, "Pr'ythee ne'er quarrel,
         "Good King of the Gods with my Vot'ries below:
         "Your Thunder is useless_then, shewing his Laurel,
          Cry'd. "Sic evitabile fulmen, you know!
                      "Then over each Head
                      "My Laurels I'll spread
         "So my Sons from your Crackers no Mischief shall dread,
         "Whilst snug in their Club-Room, they Jovially twine
         "The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS'S Vine.

          Next MOMUS got up, with his risible Phiz,
          And swore with APOLLO he'd cheerfull join_
         "The full Tide of Harmony still shall be his,
         "But the Song, and the Catch, & the Laugh shall bemine
                     "Then, JOVE, be not jealous
                      Of these honest Fellows,
          Cry'd JOVE, "We relent, since the Truth you now tell us;
         "And swear, by OLD STYX, that they long shall entwine
         "The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS'S Vine.
                                                    6
          Ye Sons of ANACREON, then, join Hand in Hand;
          Preserve Unanimity, Friendship, and Love!
         'Tis your's to support what's so happily plann'd;
          You've the Sanction of Gods, and the FIAT of JOVE.
                          While thus we agree
                          Our Toast let it be.
          May our Club flourish happy, united and free!
          And long may the Sons of ANACREON intwine
          The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS'S Vine.

Weird, eh? Unfortunately, like most discussion of Masonry, it all devolves into puritanical protestant reactionary anti-Semitism.

Then again, sometimes justice is served. Damn, that Richard Leigh has some serious moustache action going on...

Attention Ammoniacal, Georgeha, and other Devo-Loving Infidels:

MSNBC is cycling a piece on Mark Mothersbaugh and Devo (and his film music career, and Devo 2.0, and his adorable little daughter) this morning. Catch it early and often.

Also, two things in one link here:

  1. OMFG, I WANT TO TAKE THAT CLASS!
  2. ZOMFG, HE HAS A MOTHERFUCKING PUG NAMED FINSTER! HOWARD FINSTER FO' LIFE!

In Related New Wave News...

What the fuck? I mean, I love the Cars as much as the next guy. They played a valuable role in opening my musical horizons to rock music, which as a child I hated, and dismissed as worthless pop drivel (I was a jazz snob at a very early age), but there is no fucking way I'd go see this. Todd Fucking Rundgren? I mean, come on! Anyway, I've already seen the Cars twice, prior to 1984, so what would be the point? I understand why Hawkes and Easton would want to perform music on stage, and I can understand and respect why Ocasek might be over it, having married a supermodel and moved on with his life to a position of respected music producer, but couldn't Hawkes and Easton have started a new band that showcased their own songwriting, rather than an emotionally stunted revival band? Maybe they just wanted the free press, but I think this was the wrong way to go about it; now they will forever be typecast as a vapid revival band, and, considering their formidable talent, that's just sad. Also, I think Elliot Easton must be drinking the blood of virgins, as, almost thirty years after the Cars began, he still looks like a skinny, maladjusted teenager.

Worst of all, I am totally blaming Rundgren for writing the word "Blackberry" in their new song. Nasty, dude. Knock it off, already. You're defiling my childhood memories, and I may have to beat your ass.

Beer Poops!

Man, I always feel cleaner inside after a hearty, waterey beerpoop. Think I'll go have a smoke now.

I'm Tired of the Bickering

Why does she need to argue about every little thing? I know the answer. It's fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of moving. Fear of leaving behind Mom and Dad and Lil' Brother and Friends and Known Places. Still, let's argue about that, not stupid shit that I don't care about. My heart's not in the arguments, woman. You're winning by default. You're also grinding me down.

It always ends in tears.

It'd all be a lot easier if I knew where and when I was going, then I could get down to the business of persuasion. Actually, I think most of the potential places of relocation would sell themselves with a simple roadtrip, but it's not feasible to take 5 cross-country roadtrips without a solid destination in mind. Whatever. Nothing to do now but plod along.

Thank you, spellcheck. Yes, I know I spelled "watery" wrong. It looks better my way. Stop trying to force your conventions down my manbeard-covered throat.

Which Reminds Me...

I now have the most incredibly awesome goal for what I want my manbeard to be able to do.

< Young man, there's a place you can go, I said, young man, when you're short on your dough... | BBC White season: 'Rivers of Blood' >
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- Freemason drinking song
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So how do I get myself an NSK Passport, anyway? | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 hidden)
I think she needs reassurance by georgeha (4.00 / 6) #1 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:42:27 AM EST
buy the ring, pop the question and let her know it doesn't matter where you move to, since the view over the stove at the white picket fenced spawn filled yard is all the same.


It's a Prisoner's Dilemna; by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #10 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:27:24 AM EST

Why extend myself if I feel like I'm going to be cut off at the neck later? I've tried, though, to indicate my intentions, but the problem is that she doesn't seem to want to have a real discussion of these matters at the moment, instead engaging in subtle sabotage. As such, my plan is to weather the sabotage until such time as I have more concrete plans.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
What we have here if a failure to communicate by georgeha (4.00 / 1) #18 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:59:15 AM EST
I'm joining the school that says communication twixt partners is key, with honesty being paramount, with some caveats about timing, ie. bringing up low libido when someone is grieving their mother's dementia is wrong.

Granted, this is hard, and you have to hear some brutal stuff, but at least it gets all the cards on the table.

Other good techniques are mirroring (repeat what the other person said first, then respond) and the talking stick (person with the stick talks until done, no interruption).

At some point, you have to put aside all those reservations and jump whole heartedly into something, if that's what you really want. Of course, you open yourself to immeasurable hurt and betrayal, but hey, that's life.


[ Parent ]
Mirroring by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:11:14 AM EST

That technique sounds like a Neuro-Linguistic Programming trick to me. I like the talking stick idea, but I'll never get lmfB to agree to it. She'll accuse me of going all Joseph Conrad on her ass.

And I agree with what you're saying, it's just a fine line between jumping wholeheartedly and making a last minute move of desparation. Relationships: It Ain't All Gravy!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Mirroring is more of an Eliza trick by georgeha (4.00 / 1) #21 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:15:51 AM EST
But you repeat what the other person said until they agree that you understand it, it gets you past the hear what you want to not what was said thing.

Native Americans are still hip, tell her the talking stick was used at pow-wows from time immemorial by the Cherokee. I'll even make you an authentic one, drawing on my 0.2% Native Ameerican heritage.


[ Parent ]
Why do you say is more of an Eliza trick? by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #22 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:25:28 AM EST

I'd be content if she'd just be willing to discuss it without crying then switching the subject to some other random small thing. Nothing to do but wait until she's ready, I guess. I'm a big fan of directness. Apparently, other people aren't.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
You haven't talked about Eliza's mother lately by georgeha (4.00 / 1) #23 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:28:14 AM EST
Writing stuff down is another way to approach a subject that's too sensitive to talk about. You can even write questions and answers back and forth.


[ Parent ]
I shouldn't have sticks in my hands by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #47 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:44:58 PM EST
when I talk to people. It's just the prudent thing to do.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I've heard of a spoon being used by georgeha (4.00 / 2) #48 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:05:21 PM EST
though that loses something.


[ Parent ]
I suppose I could try it. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #49 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:54:34 PM EST
As long as it's not made of wood.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
AMAZING BEARD FACT by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #2 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:45:22 AM EST
The only member of ZZ Top without a beard is called Frank Beard!

I'd keep quiet about the relocation stuff until you know where you're going. Sounds like it might be a bit late for that though.

--------
It's political correctness gone mad!

Indeed, it's too late by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #11 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:27:51 AM EST

And indeed, that is an Amazing Beard Fact!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
The joke about Berkelee by ad hoc (4.00 / 2) #3 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:47:33 AM EST
is they only have one sports team (ping pong) but you should see the band!

It's a strange, strange school. Lots of Japanese kids with bleached hair and guitars. Lots and lots of kids standing outside the building smoking, waiting for class looking like they'd never seen the sun before.

Still, though. Many of them are damn good. They often play at Wally's for fun.
--
Close friendships and a private room can offer most of the things love does.

Similarly, I recall evenings at the Green Mill by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #12 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:29:38 AM EST

Coctail Lounge in Chicago, which, on "open mic night", was populated with pasty-faced jazz geniusii from Northwestern University. Local culture can be pretty awesome around and about quality music schools.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
The Masons and the Dollar by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 3) #4 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:53:31 AM EST
The Masons took some of their symbols from the dollar, not the other way around.

The "Great Eye" (eye & unfinished pyramid) symbol was designed to the first dollar in 1782. The first recorded use of the Masonic "all-seeing eye" with triangle motif was nearly a decade later, 1791.

The symbol, designed by William Barton, combined motifs from two different sources. The pyramid comes from a 1778 script note called the "Hopkins Bill." The eye was taken from the proposal of a 1776 committee on the establishment of a national seal.

It is of interest to note that of those founders most linked to Masonry - Washington, Franklin, Randolph - only one - Franklin - was on the seal committee and his proposal (a design based on a Biblical scene from Exodus) was rejected.

 

Reaaalllly grumpy anti-anti-masonic site... by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #7 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:16:43 AM EST
here.

The guy is so tired of the "eye & pyramid" and related conspiracy theories it's pretty funny. He seems to feel the movie "National Treasure" was released just to make his life more difficult.


The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.

[ Parent ]
That Guy Is Funny by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #9 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:26:10 AM EST
I'm surprised that he doesn't dedicate a full page to the fact that the United States once had a Anti-Mason political party (where both John Q. Adams and Millard Fillmore got their start). That seems like the high point of anti-Mason sentiment in the US. Though I guess he's more focused on answer current charges and questions.

[ Parent ]
Man, a scene from Exodus as the seal by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #8 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:25:19 AM EST

Would have been friggin' INTENSE. MOVEMENT OF JAH PEOPLE!

Bear in mind that I'm hypercaffeinated at the moment, which I'll use as an excuse for my shotgun-logic approach, but I believe the relationship between Masonry and the formation of the States is much more symbiotic than conspiratorial, as the Lodge, as it were, was a collective of like-minded individuals who wanted to build a secular state, as opposed to an evil Cabal of Dark Lords, building an Evil Empire, and served as a convenient rallying mechanism against folk like General Gage and other Tories. That said, it seems more than coincidental that a seal that referenced a history that the Lodge was trying desparately to associate themselves with, would be completely uninfluenced by Lodge leitmotifs. I do believe, though, that the real connections between the Lodge and the States' founders are better explored by means of military connections between the two than by the symbology of either grouping.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Franklin's Proposal by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 2) #17 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:58:24 AM EST
Supposedly had Moses slippin' away while God rained fire on the Pharaoh and his men. It was Great Seal as SFX Big Budget Disaster Film. While it certainly would have caused no end of church/state issues later, it would have looked pretty badass, I think.

Truth is, I know very little about the Masons and any connection they may or may not have had in the formation of the United States. But one of my many little obsessions is currency. Consequently, I just happen to know about that one aspect of the story.

[ Parent ]
Thumbnail version of Masonic history: by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #30 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:19:06 AM EST
What is known: In the early 1700s it became known that a fraternal club known as the Free & Accepted Masons existed in London and in Scotland. Whatever they may have been before then, at this point they were primarily a drinking & dinner club for intellectuals. As it spread it became a pretty powerful old-boys-network that spanned national boundaries and, through the spread of some seriously egalitarian ideals, had a serious effect on political development in the U.S. and Europe - which is apparently the main reason the Catholic Church doesn't like them; it's never gotten over the way Masons were involved in stripping the pope of secular power in Italy.

In the modern USA, Masonry itself is still pretty shy and retiring. It's most public face is the Shriners, who are a subordinate group. As a group, it's main purpose is to have meetings and raise money for charity. Masons give tons of money to charity (10 years ago, it was estimated at more than 1 million per day, I assume it's higher now).  There is no "national" masonic order - each state's fraternity is independent of the others and, as an artifact of history, while there are no racial criteria on joining the masons, there is an independent branch of freemasonry that is focused on minority members.

Interestingly enough, while I have promised not to discuss what masonic rituals are actually like, I can cheerfully tell you that the initiations for groups like the Moose, the Lions and the 4H are all strikingly similar - making me wonder if those other groups weren't derived from the Masons in some way.

What is highly speculative: the roots of the Masons apparently go back much deeper but they really were a secret society at that point which means THEY DIDN'T WRITE STUFF DOWN. There is no 14th century document signing transfering ownership of Templar naval fleets to the Grand Lodge of Scotland or anything like that. Thus, any information from before 1700 or so pretty much comes from doing linguistic archeology of masonic rituals - which means it's about as scientifically valid as last week's Learning Channel episode on the Bermuda Triangle. But, it's still fun to ponder. My personal opinion is that it has always been a society for people who held "unpopular" ideas - religious heretics, anti-royalists, etc..

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.

[ Parent ]
So You're Saying . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #35 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:35:05 AM EST
That if my partner (the party of the first party) and myself (the party of the second party) go into the mountains of India in hopes of finding a lost kingdom (the party of the third party) in the hopes of subjecting them to our complete and total rule, we should not expect Masonic symbols to convince these ancient people that we are gods?

This is going to throw my 5-year plan to retirement into complete disarray.

[ Parent ]
Only if one of those symbols is by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 3) #37 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:42:13 AM EST
an AC130 gunship.


The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
[ Parent ]
Do you consider 'nuclear weapons' to be by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 3) #38 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:42:17 AM EST

a Masonic symbol, or more a Rosicrucian symbol of successful alchemical transformation of one form of matter to another? If so, your plans are all set, proceed full steam ahead!


-
You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Now you're getting all order-of-the-golden-dawn by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #40 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:47:45 AM EST
on us.

I have studied the cards closely and there is no truth to the theory that Bush the Younger is actually the Magician reborn.1

1 I will admit, however, that Cheney bears a striking resemblance to the Hierophant.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.

[ Parent ]
We have a Mason here on HuSi. by calla (4.00 / 1) #36 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:41:58 AM EST
The tall kid from the NE. He hasn't posted in a while - what's his name?


[ Parent ]
Naturally, illsorted can't say by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #39 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:43:35 AM EST

Lest he be found where the tide comes but once a day, with stones in his pockets!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Bah. The oathes I swore were much ickier than that by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #43 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:56:45 AM EST
I'd give you an example, but I like my body parts where they are, thanks.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
[ Parent ]
"...Lest his bowels be ripped from his body, by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #50 Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 12:31:14 AM EST
burned before him and cast to the four walls."


[ Parent ]
The walls? The walls? by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #51 Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 04:13:29 AM EST
I'm more worried about those pointy caps they like to put on the towers, thank you very much.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
[ Parent ]
Brainfart! by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #52 Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 06:51:02 AM EST
I meant four winds.  No idea what happened there!


[ Parent ]
Yeah, sure by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #24 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:54:48 AM EST
That's what they want you to think!
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Are You Sure? by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 2) #31 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:20:50 AM EST
Maybe that's just what they want you to think is what they want you to think.

[ Parent ]
Yes I'm sure! by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #41 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:50:38 AM EST
The tin-foil keeps them out.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
All Mine Is Doing . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #42 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:52:15 AM EST
Is giving me a bald spot. How long do we have to wear these?

[ Parent ]
Until the beard is fully grown by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #44 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 09:04:26 AM EST

It's right there on the Care and Use Tag!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Ok there mister silly pants by joh3n (4.00 / 2) #5 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 05:58:36 AM EST
Your beard link had THIS on the sidebar.  WTF?

----

Whoa... LOOOOOOOOSARS! by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:30:24 AM EST

I can't tell if that's just completely out of sync, or a Work of Staggering Genius!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
answer: both by joh3n (4.00 / 1) #14 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:35:28 AM EST

----

[ Parent ]
WTF?!? by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #6 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:04:59 AM EST
  1. What's the connection between the Anacreontic Society and the Freemasons?
  2. How is a group created to celebrate brotherhood across religious boundaries "anti-semetic"?
In conclusion, I would like to point out that the true, secret, spirit of Freemasonry is most completely captured by this particular symbol - that, my friend, is what the Masons are really all about.

Well, that, and the occasional balloon animal.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough; by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 2) #15 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:41:57 AM EST

It isn't Freemasonry who I'm accusing of anti-Semitism; it's anti-freemason conspiracy zealots, who all too quickly ignore the forgery that is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in favor of grouping Masonry with those Evil Jew Bankers. Now, it's certainly true that the concept of loaning money and charging interest is a Templar invention, oft attributed to Those Evil Zionists, any connection between the Templars and Freemasonry is entirely a construct of Masonry propagandists.

Regardless, like I said in another comment, I don't think the role Masonry played in the formation of the US can be outright rejected, but I don't see that as evidence of a conspiracy, so much as a convenient rallying point for like-minded folk who wanted to construct a secular state. It also suggests that perhaps British generals charged with quelling the uprising of the States didn't really want to win one for the King, as they, attending the same lodges as those in charge of the uprising, weren't entirely opposed to the construction of said secular state. So, I agree; Freemasonry is basically a big social club, which is certainly the case these days. It just happens to be a social club with former political goals that have since been achieved.

As for the connection between the "Anacreontic Society" and the Lodge, I think that it's a pretty widely-accepted fact that particular incarnation of the Anacreontic Society was Masonic in origin. There've been other "Anacreontic Societies", but that one was comprised almost entirely of Lodge members in good standing.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Oooohhhh no. I'm not letting you off that easy! by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #16 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 06:54:47 AM EST
By merely linking to people who hold these beliefs you are clearly endorsing them!

You can expect a nocturnal visit from my Masonic Overlords friends who will strenuously explain to you exactly how peaceful and freedom loving we freemasons really are! The brass knuckles will merely be the sort of courtesy we extend to all those who oppose us potential members of our benevolent association!

On a different note - the connection between the Templars and the Freemasons is, obviously, entirely speculative, but it is certainly interesting. A lot of Masonic ritual is apparently rooted in the language of medieval France - which would be simply bizarre if the origins of the fraternity really were in 1717. Sadly, problems with my time cube are currently preventing me from giving the question the attention it deserves.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.

[ Parent ]
Look here, you Masonic Apologist! by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 2) #19 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:02:31 AM EST

I have absolutely no doubt that Freemasons are freedom-loving people. I find it entirely plausible that said love of freedom is at least partially to be credited for the freedoms you and I enjoy right now! The problem with serious discussion about Masonry with random people, as I'm sure you're already fully familiar, is that there's way too many nutjobs out there who assume that if the organization in question isn't entirely transparent, then it's obviously up to no good.

Hrmm, if only I could think of a current political metaphor for such nutjobbery... Oh yeah, DAILYKOS! Please note that I did not link to them, and therefore obviously don't endorse their views.

Someday I have to diarize the full theory about the Templar treasure disappearance of 1314, and how it made it's way first to Scotland, then Gnawbone, Indiana. Unfortunately, it'll require a trip to Southern Indiana to photograph the octagonal, alleged "Templar ruins" along the banks of the Ohio, and making a trip to that area isn't high on my list of vacation spots at the moment.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Oh, I see. So not only are you... by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #25 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 07:57:58 AM EST
a closet anti-masonic-semeticist you have a grudge against our Indiananian brethren!

And, obviously, your over-the-top attempts to distance yourself clearly indicate that you have repressed liberal tendencies!

Or something.

Which side am I supposed to be arguing, again?

Heh. When I was first discussing whether or not I would join the sekrit new world order, I looked around the web I was appalled at what I "learned" about the masons on the web. Eventually, though, I realized that the gap between web sites and reality was too large to be bridged: on the one hand, a satanic cult bent on world domination and, on the other, a bunch of elderly quaker types whose idea of a wild party was to put fresh strawberries on their ice cream. I can only assume that there are actually two masonic orders and the one I belong to is merely a front for the "real" masons.


The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.

[ Parent ]
Prince Hall Masonry is the sekrit evil one! by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 2) #28 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:17:07 AM EST

But will he even know to register that comment as "racist"? Only time will tell!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
I dunno. by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #33 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:27:02 AM EST
Do we red-blooded Yankees still consider Loyalists to be the Spawn of Satan?


The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
[ Parent ]
I suppose it all depends by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #34 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:28:21 AM EST

on what those Loyalists are loyal to.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
I thought by garlic (4.00 / 1) #26 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:02:39 AM EST
I thought philip got the templars declared as heretics so that he could take their money from them since they denied his loan application.


[ Parent ]
Of course, but THEY knew that was coming, by georgeha (4.00 / 2) #27 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:16:34 AM EST
thanks to spies in Phillip's court. So, with the knowledge gleaned from confidential Irish monk's report of another land to the East, they built a treasure fleet, landed in America and ended up in Indiana.


[ Parent ]
Where they named their new home after their by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #32 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:21:34 AM EST

port of departure, Narbonne. Over time, the name of the town was Hoosierified into "Gnawbone". And now you know, the rest of the story...


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
And upon application denial, by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #29 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 08:18:54 AM EST

the Templars moved their operations to Nigeria, where they ran up a huge credit card debt in Philip the Fair's name, in what was the first recorded scam in history.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Todd Rundgren pwns j00. by Forbidden (4.00 / 1) #46 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 12:06:38 PM EST
Also, Kasim Sulton.

That's 50% of Utopia.

You once was.
So how do I get myself an NSK Passport, anyway? | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 hidden)

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