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By anonimouse (Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 11:21:15 AM EST) (all tags)
Does anyone else think the French didn't handle the apartment attack very well?


5,000 bullets fired and lots of grenades for just 3 targets, one dead puppy, failure to blow a security door. (I'm fairly certain its standard special forces doctrine not to come in through a door, especially a reinforced one, and use windows or blow a hole in a wall)
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Paris Question | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
When I was in the SAS.. by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #1 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32:54 AM EST
Sorry not allowed to talk about that...

I would've been in SAS by ambrosen (4.00 / 3) #5 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 01:35:21 PM EST
but the flights were cheaper on Norwegian, so I flew to Scandinavia with them instead.

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I would have, too... by gzt (4.00 / 1) #18 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 04:17:37 PM EST
...but R works so much better for most of what I do.

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Putin would have filled the entire building with by georgeha (4.00 / 1) #2 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 11:41:54 AM EST
anesthetic gas first.

A few more people probably would have died, but if you're willing to live an apartment building with swarthy Muslims, you're probably a terrorist, too.


it has been discussed... by bobdole (2.00 / 0) #3 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 12:23:54 PM EST
given that most two-handed weapons in use by counter-terrorism forces have 30-50 round mags.... 5000 rounds is an astonishing number of rounds.

Surprised that the house is still standing.
-- The revolution will not be televised.

Everything I know about French police ... by lm (4.00 / 1) #7 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 02:00:17 PM EST
... is from District 13.

The media reports of the raid sound about right to me.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Helps to have expendables by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #4 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 01:15:50 PM EST
I'd guess they send the foreign legion through the reinforced door as a diversion. Consulting with a few SAS blokes who had been to Fallujah (or similar UK actions) would make a lot of sense, but national pride would probably interfere*.

Wumpus

*There is a guide book in the Pentagon about what not to do in Viet Nam. It was written by the French (in French, or course) when they were withdrawing. It pretty much explains why every French (and later US, we did them all except Dien Bien Phu) action failed. Unfortunately, it was never translated to English and never really read (or at least by anyone the Pentagon would listen to) before the fall of Saigon.

National pride by lm (2.00 / 0) #6 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 01:57:03 PM EST
I can recall reading an op/ed piece in The Hindu during the 2003 invasion of Iraq about British special forces that were pinned down by a sniper and waited several hours for air support - eventually a Harrier came by and obliterated the sniper.

The gist of the op/ed was that Indian special forces would have never waited that long. Sure, they may have had some injuries and maybe even a death or two, but they would have taken the sniper in minutes instead of waiting for hours on end.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
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Supposedly, Israeli tactics were used by lm (2.00 / 0) #8 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 02:13:03 PM EST
There are multiple reports that the French commando teams have training based on Israeli special forces tactics.

Anyway, with over 100 officers present and a gun battle that lasted several hours, 5000 rounds spent on one side doesn't seem all that outrageous to me.

The thing that seems pretty amazing to me is that there were no civilian deaths or other casualties and that only 5 police officers were wounded.

The other amazing thing is the number of live suspects that were arrested given the amount of ordinance spent and the number of grenades thrown into the building.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
it is on the edge of outrageous by bobdole (2.00 / 0) #9 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 02:47:09 PM EST
when you are trying to put fire on to a tiny area. 100 officers cannot with reasonable safety put fire into the same apartment.
Fire discipline is tremendously important when conducting close quarters operations... in this case, it sounds like fire discipline was neglected.
-- The revolution will not be televised.
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Was it close quarters? by lm (2.00 / 0) #10 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 05:42:57 PM EST
My impression was that the vast majority of shots were taken from outside the building.

Same with the grenade tossing.

I wouldn't be surprised if fire discipline was neglected. But unless I missed something, only the terror suspects were in the building and the coppers doing the shooting were mostly outside the building.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
which is even more strange by bobdole (2.00 / 0) #11 Fri Nov 20, 2015 at 06:12:37 PM EST
if there is distance, using barrage fire on a house in a built up area is not a very effective policing tactic.

But I wasn't there, so it's all guesswork.
-- The revolution will not be televised.

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Seems to have been effective ... by lm (2.00 / 0) #13 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 07:23:05 AM EST
... no civilians injured or killed, most of the suspects arrested alive, minimal injuries to law enforcement.

But perhaps not very efficient.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
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I cordially invite you to breach a house wall by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #12 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 01:42:38 AM EST
with nothing less than a forklift, or a fire exe and a free afternoon.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

I was thinking of by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #14 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 08:11:07 AM EST
 High explosives. They used plastique on the security door but not enough apparently

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
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What could possibly go wrong? by lm (4.00 / 3) #16 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 10:34:54 AM EST
Creating a new opening in a load bearing wall in an old building that probably wouldn't pass modern buildings codes can't be that bad of an idea.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Well by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #20 Tue Nov 24, 2015 at 06:11:21 AM EST
One could regard bringing the building down on a group of terrorists a win-win situation...


Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
[ Parent ]
If you knew only terrorists were inside, maybe by lm (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Nov 24, 2015 at 06:40:10 AM EST
Assuming that the building didn't topple over into other buildings and the like, it might be considered a win/win.

But in this case, unless I read the headlines wrong, some of the suspects apprehended during the siege were later released. This suggests to me that it wasn't only terrorists in the building.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Based on my experience by gmd (4.00 / 5) #15 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 08:48:12 AM EST
with Battlefield 3 AND 4, i would have used smoke grenades, followed by a couple of RPGs into the apartment wall, perhaps backed up by someone dropping C4 from a helicopter. Or alternatively two snipers camped about three miles away could probably have got the job done. French police are clearly n00bs

--
gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
You win the Internet today by kwsNI (4.00 / 1) #17 Sat Nov 21, 2015 at 10:44:27 AM EST
NT

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dropping C4 from a helicopter by wiredog (4.00 / 2) #19 Mon Nov 23, 2015 at 06:50:26 AM EST
Worked in Philly.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
Paris Question | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback