Print Story How Not to Support the Notion You Are a Marxist Kenyan Usurper:
Politics
By ammoniacal (Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 02:15:30 PM EST) (all tags)
Step 1: Don't order the flags of the country you're presiding over to fly at half-mast for a dead guy who co-founded a Marxist terrorist organization, achieved jack-shit for your own nation and was responsible for the loss of well over 100 innocent lives.

Super fucking annoyed about this right now.

Spare me the platitudes about his saintly life at the end. It doesn't wash the blood away, people.



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How Not to Support the Notion You Are a Marxist Kenyan Usurper: | 45 comments (45 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Ok by Oberon (4.00 / 2) #1 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 03:07:07 PM EST
You should stop celebrating your Independence Day thingy while you're at it. Stupid terrorists!

How now, mad spirit?
(Comment Deleted) by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #6 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 08:10:25 PM EST

This comment has been deleted by ammoniacal



[ Parent ]
Washington was an American. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #7 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 08:12:35 PM EST
I don't think we should perform this honor for non-Americans and frankly, we shouldn't have done it for Nixon either.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
You nationalists are so cute when you're angry by marvin (2.00 / 0) #2 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 04:59:37 PM EST
nt

Is nationalist a dirty word now? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #8 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 08:14:48 PM EST
Sorry we haven't formed the United Federation of Planets for you, but I love most of my country.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
In the New World Order by gmd (2.00 / 0) #31 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 05:03:47 PM EST
 There is no place for nationalism of any kind. Amusingly however as we see with the EU, the more supra-national entites try to supress nationalism, the more entrenched it becomes.  I just wish there was a way to speed up the inevitable return to a Europe of nation states.

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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
Dissolving NATO would do it. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #32 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 12:25:50 AM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Now Obama's just trolling by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #3 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 06:57:09 PM EST
the teabaggers.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

I think you're right. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #9 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 08:16:28 PM EST
He's shown an amazing level of insensitivity toward his fellow Americans while in office.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I read on the internet he is not actually american by gmd (2.00 / 0) #10 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 11:26:43 PM EST
 And was in fact born in Kenya.

nothing would surprise me. Anyway Obama cannot be re elected so it looks like you will have to suffer Hilary next...


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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
I'm ok with that, now that she's post-menopausal. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #12 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:05:11 AM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Or by kwsNI (4.00 / 1) #4 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 07:58:18 PM EST
It's all at half mast today for Pearl Harbor Day.

I noticed it on Friday, the 6th. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #5 Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 08:07:45 PM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
makes sense by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #11 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:21:52 AM EST
No one is on DC after 3 on Friday

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I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR BALLS! ->clock
[ Parent ]
Every time I read this... by ana (4.00 / 4) #13 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:34:48 AM EST
it scans as "Keynesian Marxist" which would be another kettle of fish. 

I now know what the noise that is usually spelled "lolwhut" sounds like. --Kellnerin

Other Marxist Kenyan Usurpers by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #14 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:28:45 PM EST
UK Prime Minister David Cameron, Australian PM Tony Abbot, French President Francois Hollande...
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
Other flags don't matter by marvin (4.00 / 2) #15 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:42:34 PM EST
Really, who cares about the lesser nations and their flags like the Union Jack.

THIS IS OLD GLORY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!! George Washington and the other slave owning US revolutionaries wouldn't have lowered it for any black man. Can't you see how wrong this is? I can see how all freedom loving people in the US are simply aghast at the thought of moving away from the social norms that prevailed in 1776.

The bestest US president ever, Ronald Reagan, knew better than to impose anti-apartheid sanctions. He knew that sanctions would have helped Mandela win, and that it would be unwise to allow that when there are dangerous commies around.

[ Parent ]
It should have been lowered for MG Charles Rogers by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #16 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:57:02 PM EST
Secondly, as Reagan barely escaped impeachment over the Contra matter, I'd skip the honor for him if it were in my purview.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Newt Gingrich Counter-Trolls ammoniacal by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #17 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:52:01 PM EST
From here:
Mandela was faced with a vicious apartheid regime that eliminated all rights for blacks and gave them no hope for the future. This was a regime which used secret police, prisons and military force to crush all efforts at seeking freedom by blacks.
...
Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.
Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.

I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.



Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

So Newt's given up on 2016 by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #18 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:04:42 PM EST
and is back to being the intellectual of the GOP.


[ Parent ]
newt by gzt (4.00 / 1) #19 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:26:13 PM EST
has consistently been right about Mandela. he was saying this in 80s, contra to Reagan. it's one of the few things I like about him.

[ Parent ]
doesn't matter; still communist. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #20 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:49:23 PM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
the communism part doesn't give me pause by StackyMcRacky (4.00 / 1) #21 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:22:09 PM EST
it's the "killed lots of innocents" I struggle with.  people are posting "thanks for showing us another way to live" all over my internets, and i'm all uh, by the ends justifying the means?  I'm torn, so I say nothing.

I totally understand your position. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #23 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 01:28:54 AM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
"killing lots of innocents" by gzt (2.00 / 0) #28 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 11:10:00 AM EST
Avoided civilian targets, was in jail with very little contact with anybody when the really ugly things were happening (ie, not on his watch).

[ Parent ]
so many conflicting stories by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #29 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 01:03:03 PM EST
but almost everybody agrees "not on his watch" is not the case at all.  i believe he has even admitted as much.

so i dunno. 

[ Parent ]
he has discussed in detail by gzt (2.00 / 0) #30 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 01:28:08 PM EST
how much blood, when, and where, is on his hands, but the impression i got was that the stuff in the 80s was off his hands and that, generally, he avoided civilian targets.

[ Parent ]
lolwut? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #34 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 12:33:39 AM EST
You know he spent the entirety of the Eighties (and the Seventies) in prison, right?

He was responsible for plenty of death in the Sixties though, which is my beef.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
80s by gzt (2.00 / 0) #37 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 07:09:39 AM EST
yes, precisely.

60s was on the order of 100 people. you do realize that, for instance, at one peaceful protest prior to his sabotage campaigns (which were not directed at civilian targets and were intended to minimize casualties), the government killed 69 protesters? anyway, this is how revolution works.

[ Parent ]
and part of my point.. by gzt (2.00 / 0) #38 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 08:37:35 AM EST
...is that a lot of people putting out these talking points are talking about crap that went on in the 70s and 80s.

[ Parent ]
Hey, John Wayne Gacy killed way more than I killed by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #39 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:59:49 AM EST
I'll be sure to share that defense strategy with my attorney. I'm sure he'll be dutifully impressed. We may send you a royalty cheque if it works.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I'm not a historian, but.... by marvin (4.00 / 1) #33 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 12:31:44 AM EST
I spent some time looking at some documents, most of which pre-dated his death. Ever since Diana got herself smeared across a tunnel in Paris, it seems to me that the immediate public canonization of every celebrity upon their death makes it difficult to trust anything written about them for the next few years.

This looks like an interesting Reddit thread.

This Forbes article is from the last week, but is interesting since it discusses some of the US politicians who had the biggest problem with acknowledging Mandela. Or maybe I included it because it trash talks Dick Cheney. Either one works.

Peter Hitchens August 2006 blog in The Mail on Sunday adds another data point. He ran for a British Conservative Party nomination in 1999, which probably still puts him to the left of a US Democrat.

ti_ammo_dave will surely like this one, which includes a handwritten document titled "How to be a good Communist" by Nelson Mandela. Uh, that site is a bit of a treat. While it is best taken as satire, I think the site owner is sadly serious. The fact that Zimbabwe is far worse off under Mugabe than it was as Rhodesia doesn't excuse or justify the entrenched racial discrimination of Rhodesia's government in the 60's and 70's.

Another document from that same site is a lot more interesting, but is quite long. Rivonia Unmasked appears to be a history of the 1963 trial. I skimmed 30-40 pages of it, and found it a fascinating snapshot of white South Africa in 1963, from the perspective of the government and prosecution.

Overall, I don't think Mandela directly killed anyone, let alone 100 people himself as ti_ammo_dave suggests. As pointed out in the documents above, Umkhonto We Sizwe started out with sabotage to destabilize the apartheid government and weaken its grip. If the South African government could have pinned a murder charge on Mandela in 1963, they certainly would have.

Mandela didn't have any real opportunity to direct the organization between 1963 and his release from jail 27 years later, spending many years with one visitor and one (censored) letter every 6 months according to Wikipedia. The biggest problems with Umkhonto We Sizwe including civilian deaths from terrorist acts appear to have been in the 1970s and 1980s.

One of the sources above (or one I didn't post, can't recall) indicated that Mandela could have gotten out of jail in the mid-80's by renouncing violence, but he refused to do so. I can't say that I would disagree with his position. When dealing with a murderously violent and racist state, which considered people to be sub-human based on skin colour, there wasn't much point in the ANC being the only party forced to play by civilized rules.

Nearly as many people were murdered in Sharpeville by the South African police on March 21 1960 as the ANC killed through terrorist acts over the next 30 years. Hundreds more people, possibly as many as 700, were killed in the Soweto uprising in 1976, most of them by the state. I tend to agree that a racist police state should be resisted by whatever means necessary, and that anyone who suggests otherwise is not thinking straight.

A success like Ghandi's requires either a near-endless series of martyrs, or else a civilized enemy. Ghandi was lucky to have not been facing Afrikaners. I don't think the people claiming that Mandela should have been more like Ghandi have reconciled themselves to this wikipedia statement:

Gandhi's views came under heavy criticism in Britain when it was under attack from Nazi Germany, and later when the Holocaust was revealed. He told the British people in 1940, "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

As for the half-staff for Mandela somehow being an affront to a piece of decorative cloth that birds shit upon, President Eisenhower suggests otherwise.

4. In the event of the death of other officials, former officials, or foreign dignitaries, the flag of the United States shall be displayed at half-staff in accordance with such orders or instructions as may be issued by or at the direction of the President, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law.

Oh, as an fyi, Mandela was the first foreign leader to be awarded the Order of Canada in 1998, and the first living person to be awarded honorary Canadian citizenship in 2001. In comparison, he remained on a terrorism watch list in that bastion of freedom, the USA, until 2008.

[ Parent ]
Is there a precedent for non-allied dignitaries? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #35 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 12:47:22 AM EST
I doubt it and I don't see this person as a great choice for breaking with tradition. Also, our flag is more than a piece of cloth to me and I cannot expect you to empathize with, or even understand, a soldier's views on patriotism.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Limited chance of empathy, correct by marvin (4.00 / 1) #36 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:11:05 AM EST
The proclamation by Eisenhower was "foreign", not "allied". You are currently allied with a bunch of pedophiles in Kabul. Planning on lowering your flag for them? Or is lowering your standards enough?

Oh, and how about Major Steuber, the guy interviewed in the Vice documentary I linked in the first paragraph? He's not in your military anymore, having resigned this summer after a poor fitness review iirc. I spent a few hours on google trying to figure out what price he paid for his integrity after watching that documentary a few months ago. As far as I can tell, he's moved to Texas for work. I found his twitter account, but it was dead from Sept to early Nov.

Major Steuber is one of the few US patriots who I respect. He's not shoving your flag in anyone's face, or wrapping himself in it. Instead, he's doing things that make that flag something worth giving a shit about, even if it costs him personally. The asswipes who ignored his reports and ultimately drove him out of your military are one of the shames of your nation.

[ Parent ]
It's a vile practice, certainly. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #41 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:12:20 AM EST
That said, I've been a police advisor in an occupied country too and I think the major went "off the res" with his self-appointed mission.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Doing the right thing is hard. by marvin (2.00 / 0) #42 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:14:48 AM EST
Which is why so few people do it.

[ Parent ]
Following difficult orders is hard. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #43 Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 12:41:28 AM EST
Which is why so few people do it.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Following unjust orders is the job of sheep by marvin (2.00 / 0) #44 Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 12:53:42 AM EST
The armed forces isn't really a place where people who like to think for themselves have a chance to prosper, is it?

I'm sure that you can explain how the US benefits from the rape of young boys in Afghanistan, and how following orders to ignore pedophilia in your "allies" and suppress media coverage of it happens to honor your flag and the people who died for it.

[ Parent ]
We have Civil Affairs people for nation-building. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #45 Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 09:56:55 PM EST
The major was operating, with good intentions no doubt, outside of his mission parameters.

It falls unto the CA folks and the State Department to try to effect change in Afghan law and politics. The major's duty was to ooerate within those parameters and he failed.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
'I don't think Mandela directly killed anyone' by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #40 Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:06:21 AM EST
Well, goddamn! Let's spring Manson from the pokey while we're on this crusade! He didn't kill anyone directly either! Model fucking citizen, Charlie is!

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Let's just leave it at by gmd (4.00 / 1) #22 Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:21:04 PM EST
"Two wrongs make a right" in all modern politics.

--
gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
I agree and also by jump the ladder (4.00 / 2) #24 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 04:47:54 AM EST
I think the US should stop supporting Israel as it was founded by terrorists and communists.

There are a lot of parallels by gmd (2.00 / 0) #25 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 09:48:27 AM EST
 Between the old South Africa and the Zionist entity of today.

--
gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
True, in fact... by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #26 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 10:26:53 AM EST
they were allies in pursuit of nuclear weaponry. Birds of a feather...

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Agreed. We spend far too much money on them. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #27 Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 10:28:22 AM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
How Not to Support the Notion You Are a Marxist Kenyan Usurper: | 45 comments (45 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback