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By gzt (Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 05:19:29 PM EST) gzt, about enough, othello, futurama, islam (all tags)
Contained herein: opinion of the mosque,


My opinion of the mosque is that they should build it. The whole thing is a non-issue, in that there's already a mosque nearby. I'd also like to see St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church rebuilt, but the issues there are complicated. If I really had my preferences enacted, the religion of Islam would cease to exist, but, since I'm not the ruler of the universe and am in America, I must be content to let them get on with what they want to do. The whole "threat" of Islam is a bit overrated, in that Americans (including Christians) are too fond of bikinis, rock and roll, and fornication to let Islam ever overrun this country and impose any sort of order. The only Islamic threat is the external/internal threat of terrorists and "terrorist states" under the sway of the new Islamists. An article I like on the matter: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/08/real_or_fake.html

Squatting was tough on the back last night.

Still reading Silmarillion. No "Oh fuck, not another elf" moments lately, there's a lot of narrative going on. Some confusion about the long lists of characters, but it's not too bad. Have to reference the back of the book or wikipedia occasionally.

Going to see Othello tonight. Unsure what their take on it will be. My hope: fairly straightforward. There's a place for adventurous theatre, but I'm not in the mood for it, at least not after that Pan reading. Frig, I was going to get the address so I could look up and print off directions while at work. It's in some awkward place.

I was bored while waiting for the Futurama DVD to load, so I measured my calf. 17". My wife's neck was like 12.5". Mine was about 18". We then watched an episode of Futurama Season 2. Tape measure! Wooo.

There was an internal showcase of tech stuff and things, I was a volunteer for part of it. The t-shirts they gave to the volunteers were actually decent, in that they had a logo that looked decent and you couldn't really tell it was uber-corporate or something. You can wear it and not be like, "THIS IS MY EMPLOYER." And the color is okay (not blue!). I wore it to the gym and got it uber-sweaty.

Not sure if there's gaming tomorrow. If not, that would work well, I would train tomorrow and then we have some errands we could run on Saturday when I would usually be training.

Teh Wife has indicated she has an interest in getting stronger, trying to think of how that would work. The best answer is barbell training, of course, but where? My gym is too dirty for her, she probably wouldn't like it, but the problem with any other gym is that I would not be there for feedback or support (not that coaching one's spouse is a very good idea). I wouldn't change gyms because this gym is cheap and awesome. Well, whatever.

I think that's about enough.

< There Will Always Be A Family Reunion... | Turin Turambor was awesome. >
All of creation | 162 comments (162 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Mosque by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #1 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 05:33:08 PM EST
Obummer was exactly right in his speech, of how America is so free that any crazy skypixie believers can find tolerance.

Where it all gets fucked is the naming of the mosque.  If the imam had had an ounce of sense he'd have called it something like "tranquility and peace mosque" in Arabic or the like.

Calling it Cordoba, the name of a mosque built on the ruins of a conquered cathedral as the victorious Musselman army swept through Spain, is either crass ignorance, or calculated insult.


But, on the other hand... by gzt (2.00 / 0) #2 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 05:41:51 PM EST
...they do have the point that Cordoba was a pretty good town after that, in terms of relations between Christians, Jews, and Musulmen.

[ Parent ]
That's way too subtle an argument by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #3 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 05:47:09 PM EST
To be had when people are already touchy about it. 


[ Parent ]
Except by notafurry (4.00 / 1) #4 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:04:06 PM EST
If you name it Cordoba before there's a controversy and state that it's because of the relatively peaceful coexistence of religions in the city of Cordoba - which it appears they have done - changing the name one the idiots start going nuts with it is just going to give them one more point to bitch about. Any change, any compromise, no matter how innocently meant, is going to prolong the discussion and inflame greater controversy.

[ Parent ]
Better by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #5 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 06:09:58 PM EST
To have just called it "peace and tranquillity" from the start, then?

No baggage to be had there, then.


[ Parent ]
That would be a highly unusual name for a mosque by notafurry (4.00 / 1) #8 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:47:20 PM EST
They're typically named after locations, heroes, or earlier mosques - like Cordoba. Mosques aren't named after abstract concepts. The most unusual name I can think of is the Mosque of Two Qiblas, and that isn't abstract - it's a literal description of the mosque's architecture.

Sure, we can armchair quarterback about what they should have done after the whole thing became a controversial subject, but it's unreasonable to think they would have made a choice like that without the controversy. And, as I said, changing it after is not a good idea.

[ Parent ]
The mosque by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #11 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:15:44 AM EST
It could have been named the "American Cute puppy, Apple Pie and Football mosque for saving orphans" and the wingnut brigade would have still made an issue of it.
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[ Parent ]
Indeed by Merekat (4.00 / 2) #13 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:08:02 AM EST
It would be clear evidence of intent to conceal the real agenda!

[ Parent ]
Hamas is in favor of it. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 2) #16 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:54:58 AM EST
Therefore, I am against it. That's all the justification I need for this matter.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Good to know by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #27 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:47:27 AM EST
/me puts ammoniacal into the "easily manipulated" column.
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[ Parent ]
Right. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #31 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:07:36 PM EST
Meanwhile, back in the Middle East, Hamas resumes exporting fabulous double rainbows and pixie dust for people like you to enjoy.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
this is a huge logical fallacy. by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #36 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:03:17 PM EST
the fact that bad people endorse something doesn't automatically mean it's bad.

and the reflexive response creates a situation where they could endorse something good deliberately to get you to oppose it.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
Would you associate with by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #41 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:25:09 PM EST
anything the Rev. Phelps endorsed?

Sometimes life is not like LOG 101, aph.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
i dislike the man intensely by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #42 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:27:31 PM EST
but that doesn't mean that if he came out in favor of legalizing pot, i'd change sides and be against it.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]
Who really objects to pot by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #45 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:32:09 PM EST
on religious grounds? I've heard the fundies bitch about Demon Rum, but never weed. Hardly a sound argument there.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Mormons. n/t by Captain Tenille (2.00 / 0) #49 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:42:49 PM EST
 

---------

/* You are not expected to understand this. */


[ Parent ]
Mormons object to Earl Grey. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #67 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:23:09 PM EST
I saw that one coming from Tukwila.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Well then by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #48 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:34:35 PM EST
Since Fred Phelps endorses heterosexual sex, clearly you must be gay then, right?
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[ Parent ]
I can't be selective? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #68 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:27:09 PM EST
Okay, blanket policy it is then, because that's your decree.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Actually, you did by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #72 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:53:52 PM EST
"Would you associate with anything the Rev. Phelps endorsed?"

Those are your words. Accept that you're wrong and retain some dignity.

[ Parent ]
That was directed to aphrael. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #74 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:25:22 PM EST
I don't give a shit about Phelps one way or another, so I don't really care where you want to bend this thread.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I see by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #77 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:45:17 PM EST
So because you meant your frankly ridiculous comment to be directed at aphrael, my pointing out that it's ridiculous is invalid?

Apparently, not only is not all life LOG 101 to you, but LOG 101 doesn't exist. Or you failed it.

[ Parent ]
Well, yes by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #80 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 06:01:41 PM EST
It is far better to be selective.  For instance, it is better to completely ignore Hamas's choices when making your own.
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[ Parent ]
I can't ignore what Hamas stands for. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #83 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 07:28:55 PM EST
Sorry if that offends you.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
So again... by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #85 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 08:03:02 PM EST
Do you hate dogs because Hitler loved them?

I am pretty sure Hamas is against the total eradication of all life on Earth.  Does that mean you are for it since you "can't ignore what Hamas stands for"?
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[ Parent ]
That's absurd! by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #89 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 09:42:34 PM EST
You and I both know they want to convert or kill infidels and drive the Jews into the sea. Nothing else about them matters to me and many other people. Really, that's the Alpha and the Omega.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I gather the light is still not dawning... by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #91 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:49:05 PM EST
In other words, you care about what they believe only in particular matters.  Thus the silliness of your original statement.
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[ Parent ]
Yes. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #92 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:13:00 AM EST
Only in particular matters. If they join forces with Bob Barker in order to spay and neuter all pets in the Mid-east, then I DON'T CARE. Is my position really so hard for you to understand?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Yes, actually by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #102 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:54:34 PM EST
You used "Hamas is for it so I am against it" as justification for your position.

Now you say you only use that as justification for "particular matters".  This makes your original justification logically null.
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[ Parent ]
Your "what-ifs" were way out of scope. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #103 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 01:07:55 PM EST
My position remains the same.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
"Scope" by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #104 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 01:51:45 PM EST
You never defined your scope.

For instance, Hamas believes that Palestinians should have self determination.  Are you automatically against that?
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[ Parent ]
Hamas == Palestinians by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #105 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 03:22:02 PM EST
so of course they believe that. Use a better device than that.

And to placate you with my answer- Palestinians already have two states, Jordan and Syria, so they should put the blame where it rightfully belongs.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
You didn't answer (nt) by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #109 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 05:35:17 PM EST

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[ Parent ]
and that's okay too. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #116 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:04:26 AM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
What ucb said by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #58 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:40:37 PM EST
Also, as a civil rights attorney he won awards from the NAACP among others for his work attacking Jim Crow segregation laws and anti-discrimination work on behalf of non-white residents of Kansas.

That work is positive, his position was reasonable. Does it make him a good man? Fuck no. But are you going to condemn the end of segregation because Fred Phelps fought - vehemently and strongly and in the face of strong opposition - to end it?

[ Parent ]
Segregation by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #69 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:31:27 PM EST
would have ended without Phelps' work. If what you claim is true, then he's done more good than Hamas, so my position remains unchanged.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Just to be clear... by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #86 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 08:05:28 PM EST
You are against whatever Hamas is for, right?

I mean, that is what you said...

So if Hamas is against forcible euthanasia for those over 30, you must be for it, right?
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[ Parent ]
Hitler loved dogs by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #47 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:33:30 PM EST
So do you hate dogs?

That is the sort of argument you are making.
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[ Parent ]
Cultural insensitivity by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #20 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:14:33 AM EST
A bit like US troops building a church in Baghdad and calling it Valetta.

So, "Mosque of New York" was out, then?


[ Parent ]
Bad analogy by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #26 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:46:00 AM EST
It's more like Iraqi Christians building a church in Baghdad.

The root error in this "controversy" is this implicit assumption that "Muslim" == "non-American".  That assumption is itself blatantly un-American.
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[ Parent ]
You may have your analogy by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #30 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:44:26 PM EST
But whoever builds it, they still call it Valetta.  Not the most sensitive name to the Baghdaddies, is it?

We're not really getting that Muslim == non American thing over here, though.

Out of interest, how many Muslims were on the Mayflower?


[ Parent ]
what difference does the mayflower make? by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #37 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:06:11 PM EST
so one of the things that's happening in this debate is a masked argument about what it means to be an american.

on one side, you have the people who (i'm broadly oversimplifying here) are of the opinion that americanness is conferred by membership in the anglo-saxon tribe, either by birth or intermarriage, and that muslims can't be americans because they're not white and not christian, and that the children of illegal immigants can't be americans because they're not blood descendants of americans.

on the other side, you have people who believe that american culture is diversity in action, and that coming here and committing to staying here makes you an american, regardless of your origin or beliefs.

this fight has been boiling under the surface in american culture for decades, and periodically breaks out into the open like this.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
I was surmising by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #53 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:26:20 PM EST
That that is inherently what some people are thinking when they think "American" PLU as you say.

On nationality it's a tricky one. Even being born somewhere doesn't make you an -an, IMHO; you have to engage fully within the predominant culture and that's a hard thing to quantify.

Aside from your birth certificate, what makes you an American?  Or me English?

Surely it goes beyond a piece of paper.


[ Parent ]
Hold up now. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #94 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 01:42:54 AM EST
Americanness? Blacks, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Poles, Italians and certain other groups who were once on the margin of society PAID their dues to America with the Sweat of their Brow and BLOOD. These people CONTRIBUTED to making America a better place. Not to say that eventually they won't fit in, but 9/11 set the clock pretty far back. Don't bother posting pics of the three Arab-Americans who died in service, I've seen them dozens of times. Those men, whose service I appreciate, are the exception to the rule of Muslim bare-fucking-minimum interaction with us filthy infidels. If they want to be accepted more frequently here, then as a class they need to drop the insular bullshit. This is the exact same attitude that's isolated and hindered American Jewry from bonding with the rest of Americans, to their disadvantage. Today's ghetto is in their heads. It needs to stop if they want to be understood and accepted by more people here.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
does this mean by garlic (2.00 / 0) #106 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:04:16 PM EST
we should kick the mormons out again, since they don't want anything to do with our predominant culture?


[ Parent ]
Mormons accomplished what Natives couldn't. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #119 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:16:34 AM EST
Driven west at gunpoint, established strongholds largely on their terms, defended those places by the ballot and the bullet and now they exercise sovreignty over a large chunk of our ass. They aren't going anywhere now and they know it.

They don't need to integrate and like the Muslims, they'd love to see you switch teams and join them. That said - they won't kill you if you don't.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Insular bullshit? by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #113 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:57:29 PM EST
Plenty of 'em work in IT with the rest of us.

(And the stereotypical ones who own the neighborhood 7/11 are quite friendly.)
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[ Parent ]
Co-workers. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #118 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:09:58 AM EST
Have you been a guest in their homes?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Homes? by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #121 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 12:32:14 PM EST
I don't know the guys at the 7/11 that well.

Oh, wait, you mean coworkers.  Strictly speaking, no, but I do have an invitation should I ever go to a certain country for sightseeing.
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[ Parent ]
I work with a Muslim. by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #122 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:23:54 PM EST
She's one of my closest friends, and I trust her opinion above most others when it comes to work or anything else. And yes, I've been a guest in her home many times (I leave my shoes at the door). She drinks alcohol, she and her husband have a very egalitarian relationship, and she dresses like everyone else (though a little nicer than I do, since her position is more visible than mine). She and her husband (and children) observe Islamic holidays and don't eat pork, but other than that, they're no different from anyone else I love.

The Muslim hate pisses me right off, I have to admit, especially because people who engage in it tend to talk about all Muslims as if they're all exactly the same (or if not exactly, then close enough).
--
The amount of suck that you can put up with can be mind-boggling, but it only really hits you when it then ceases to suck. -- Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
I'll bet she's Indonesian or a Turk. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #129 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 04:23:26 PM EST
Two of the rarer moderate Muslim societies, of course.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
You really are a racist little fuck, aren't you? by notafurry (4.00 / 1) #123 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:51:28 PM EST
All Muslims are insular, xenophobic zealots who are out to kill or convert me! I know this is true even though I'd never talk to one or associate with one! All you people who do associate with them are citing the only, singular exceptions to the general rule or you're sleeper agents or you've been corrupted by them or they're trying to trick you and you'll wake up one morning to find them in control!

You won't talk to them. You won't associate with them. You're afraid of them to the extent that you're determined to prove your superiority to them even if you have to make shit up to do it. Seattle area Muslims are no different from most of the other ethnic groups here and they're better at integration and adopting American culture than some. Ever been into the International District? There's an insular neighborhood and society, actually a whole cluster of different asian societies - they're happy to sell you dumplings but fuck off trying to become a part of their lives. Or the Russian neighborhoods around Everett and Shoreline - if you don't speak Russian, or if you're not white, fuck you and everything you stand for - don't bother even trying to get service in one of their restaurants. At least the ID will feed you. My brother dated a Russian girl for two weeks over a year ago, and some members of her family still won't speak with her because of it.

I know a fairly large number of people that I'm certain are Muslim and more that I assume to either be Muslim or at least raised in Muslim societies. Some are friends, some aren't. A few of them strike me as very insular, and a couple even give me cause to think they consider me beneath them for being an infidel. The majority of them are no different from anybody else - they live, enjoy hobbies, practice their religion to varying degrees, have kids, get married, have affairs, get divorced, die. On the whole, they're happy to be here, welcome social invitations and honest interest in friendship, and the only one I'd ever even consider the possibility of having a bomb is a pyrotechnics expert who does demolition for my wife's uncle's construction company. If that conservative bunch of rednecks can happily work and share beers with a brown-skinned man with a Saudi accent who runs around all day with detonators and dynamite, you think you might back the fuck off long enough to share a bus without being a complete ass?

[ Parent ]
Islam is not a race. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #130 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 04:31:33 PM EST
I can see how that might confuse you though. I know several Russians and Ukrainians who seem like nicely tolerant folks. I went out with a Laotion gal from the ID on Friday and I had a great time with no hassle. So who's the racist now?

BTW, just what is a "Saudi accent" and how would you know it if you heard it?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Close enough. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #137 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:37:07 PM EST
I actually speak enough Russian to get by, so I don't have as much trouble. And I don't think they're wrong or evil or unanimous in their actions - after all, the girl was happy to date my brother, so obviously it's not "all Russians". Unlike you, who insist all Muslims are evil.

Islam's not a race, no, but "bigot" is overused, religious descrimination doesn't have as convenient of a tag, and your statements indicate a belief all the Muslims in the area are Middle Eastern - they're the ones in our area most likely (possibly the only ones) to wear headscarves. Racist didn't seem like a stretch.

A Saudi accent is the accent of an Arabic speaker from Saudi Arabia. It's fairly distinctive. Technically there's more than one but 99% of the immigrants are from the area around Riyadh. Kuwaiti accents are similar. Iraqi are totally different. Jordanian too. And I don't think I'd question how I know - I wonder what you could possibly have any knowledge, since you won't speak to them.

[ Parent ]
Where did I say all? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #140 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 09:25:51 PM EST
I'd be happy to break bread with a liberal or moderate Muslim who disavows the killing of non-believers. In fact. I already have with non-asshole Muslims from Ethiopia, Turkey and Somalia, but that's the kicker, eh? The moderates fled their homelands and left the fundy assholes in charge back home. Those are the Muslims I mostly take issue with, capiche?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Here's the first example I came across by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #145 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 03:15:50 AM EST
"Don't bother posting pics of the three Arab-Americans who died in service, I've seen them dozens of times. Those men, whose service I appreciate, are the exception to the rule of Muslim bare-fucking-minimum interaction with us filthy infidels. If they want to be accepted more frequently here, then as a class they need to drop the insular bullshit."

That seem to pretty clearly speak to your attitude towards Muslims in America. You don't believe or say that they left all the radicals behind when they came here until you're challenged.

[ Parent ]
I acknowledged the outliers. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #153 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:39:25 PM EST
Clearly the number of Muslim extremists is < 100% of the overall number. Do you understand what "all" means?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Apparently you don't by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #158 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:37:22 PM EST
Since you've been using it and its synonyms throughout this conversation without getting it right.

[ Parent ]
Which synonyms for "all," pray tell? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #160 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:47:08 PM EST
I'm pretty good about using all, most and some when I mean to use those specific terms, so I'd like to see where you believe I've misused them here.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I'm tired of correcting you. Look yourself. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #161 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:13:08 PM EST
This conversation is full of your "All muslims are" insert bullshit here.

[ Parent ]
You wrote 3 of the last 6 instances by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #162 Tue Aug 24, 2010 at 05:10:09 AM EST
of "all muslims are" on this site. Clock, Tonatiuh and TheophileEscargot wrote the other three. Just give up the White Knighting. No one cares, dude.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Also, I read their literature. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #131 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 04:41:42 PM EST
I can safely skip asking each Muslim individually about their thoughts on 9/11 by reading their manifestos. If there are any moderate and decent Muslim residents out there, they need to ramp up the presses because their messages are being drowned out by their fundy brethren and they're losing.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Incorrect by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #136 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:24:21 PM EST
If you don't go look for it, you will only find the nasty shit because that's all that makes the press. Then again, what makes the press from Christianity? Westboro Baptist Church, abuse cases in the Catholic church, and... ?Read the "manifesto" of the group behind the Cordoba mosque. Read the condemnation and proclamations issued against 9/11 - they're  not hard to find, if you look.

[ Parent ]
I'll take a look. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #139 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 09:18:18 PM EST
Again, they need way better PR in the western world.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I have, and vice versa by theboz (2.00 / 0) #125 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 02:05:24 PM EST
In fact, a couple of my old drinking buddies are Muslims.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]
Indonesians, right? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #128 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 04:21:43 PM EST
They're often moderate in practice.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Nope by theboz (2.00 / 0) #133 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 05:01:12 PM EST
Pakistani, Jordanian whose parents were kicked out of Palestine by Israel, Indian, and Lebanese.  Oh, and while I don't know them well, my next door neighbors are Iraqi, and the college age daughters wear bikinis at the pool a lot.  My daughter plays with the grandson of the parents when their daughter from Dallas visits.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]
"Kicked out of Palestine by Israel" by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #142 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 09:32:43 PM EST
Before you go blindly believing that line, look at the boundaries of the former Palestine and see how many different players were involved in the Palestinian diaspora. You'd have to ask very specifically to see whose guns displaced them.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
The other kicker by theboz (2.00 / 0) #134 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 05:02:57 PM EST
I forgot to mention it, but a few of my Muslim friends and I share a mutual Jewish friend.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]
Strangely enough by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #141 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 09:28:41 PM EST
you can find those relationships in Israel too. It just doesn't get a lot of press.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Mayflower by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #46 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:32:29 PM EST
The number of Muslims on the Mayflower equaled the number of Jews, Buddhists, Italians, Slavs, Germans and Japanese on the Mayflower.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Mosque of New York is indeed out by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #28 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:25:37 PM EST
Because there already is one.

[ Parent ]
Picky by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #29 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:41:36 PM EST
Mosque of 49th Street then.

The point I'm making is that there are lots of other names that can be used that don't have baggage.


[ Parent ]
And it *wouldn't matter* by notafurry (4.00 / 1) #38 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:10:44 PM EST
The wingnuts would still pitch a fit.

Does "Cordoba" have baggage? Some. It also has history, significance that is highly positive both for the Muslims for whom this is a fucking house of worship, not just a political statement, and also for the non-Christians in the area as a symbol of a place where coexistence and tolerance really does work reasonably well. There's nothing really wrong with the name, a lot that's good, and there's no reason to be critical of its selection.

[ Parent ]
conservatives claim this is about 9/11 by aphrael (4.00 / 2) #44 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:29:03 PM EST
but i remain unconvinced, because mosques in other places - temecula, say, or tennessee - are also drawing activist opposition for reasons which have nothing to do with 9/11.

ground zero, 9/11, cordoba - they're all rationalizations.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
Rationalisations by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #54 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:26:52 PM EST
For what?


[ Parent ]
rationalizations by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #76 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:31:30 PM EST
for opposing a mosque just because it's a mosque and they dislike muslims.

(i'm overgeneralizing. i don't think this is the case for you, for example. but i think it plays a big part in the groundswell of opposition in my country.)
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
Ah OK. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #95 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:00:06 AM EST
Bit like Englandland in the 70's then.


[ Parent ]
There was a photo essay recently by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #55 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:27:22 PM EST
I'll see if I can find it - anyway, the essay was attacking the notion that the mosque was being opposed because "Ground Zero is hallowed ground", that it showed a lack of respect to build this mosque so close and that farther away would be fine. The essay photographed other properties and businesses at the same distance from Ground Zero as the proposed mosque.

A strip club, two fast food franchises, a Dunkin Donuts, tshirt vendors, several others.

I agree these are all justifications for racist or religious bigotry. Attacking those rationalizations is the best way to eventually dismiss them and force their proponents to openly defend their bullshit.

[ Parent ]
I hope you're not tarring me with that brush by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #57 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:37:21 PM EST
As above, I do agree it is right according to your laws that the mosque should be built, my only beef is the naming of it.


[ Parent ]
Not really by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #59 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:42:41 PM EST
I'm tarring you with the "I believe my armchair quarterback perspective with the full benefits of hindsight and limited perspective on the issues involved gives me the right to say they were stupid to do this" brush. It's a much lighter grade of tar, and the feathers are finest goose down.

[ Parent ]
That's alright then. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #63 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:10:42 PM EST
As I'm sure you're not in an armchair, with full spectrum understanding of the issues and therefore completely in the right.


[ Parent ]
Indeed. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #65 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:11:57 PM EST
I accept your praise of my superiority with all due humility.

[ Parent ]
Next step: by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #66 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:16:38 PM EST
Declare divinity.


[ Parent ]
no by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #79 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:58:07 PM EST
but this is one of those issues where not being domiciled here, and therefore depending on internet and media reportage, may obscure some of what is happening.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]
You are too generous by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #97 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:11:08 AM EST
I think a lot of it is obscured from me, especially the cultural references. 

I offer my opinion only as an outsider looking in.


[ Parent ]
I have a hard time by garlic (2.00 / 0) #107 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:06:35 PM EST
believing that any American's would know good or bad significance of the name of the mosque.


[ Parent ]
I bet the Fox news watchers by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #110 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 05:40:47 PM EST
Do now though...


[ Parent ]
Actually by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #124 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:58:13 PM EST
I have a hard time believing Fox would bother with that issue. They don't need it - they've already stirred up enough outrage for their purposes. And it's an issue that's hard to communicate clearly without your audience already having enough grasp of history to understand references to the Moorish conquest of Spain, which isn't exactly a description of the core Fox News audience. ("You mean Mexicans is Muslim?!")

[ Parent ]
Yeah by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #148 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:12:57 AM EST
Education, eh?


[ Parent ]
They probably would by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #56 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:28:02 PM EST
But giving them such an open goal is pretty stupid or thoughtless.


[ Parent ]
I wish I was a Wiccan by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #7 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:24:01 PM EST
If I was, I'd support keeping the mosque out with the added demand that all Christian churches within a mile of Salem, MA be torn down.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
That is a good analogy by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #10 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 10:26:06 PM EST



[ Parent ]
but then he backpedaled by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #35 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:01:48 PM EST
and said he wasn't saying it was a good idea, etc, etc.

he's not as good at this as Clinton was.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
I'd like to see a quick poll by clock (2.00 / 0) #90 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 10:28:18 PM EST
of Americans who could tell you the history of "Cordoba."  Or know that there were ever Muslims in Spain.  Or that in 1492 anything other than "Columbus sailed the ocean blue" happened.

Not to dog my countrymen, mind, but I just think that in either case, crass ignorance or calculated insult, 99.999% of Americans missed the joke.  I honestly think that they could have called it the "Tranquility and Peace Mosque for the Betterment of All Mankind and Jesus Was a Swell Guy Too" and it would have been shit on.

Then again, I always choose ignorance over malice when it comes to intent.


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
Yeah I probably have a filthy by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #96 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:08:23 AM EST
Euro outlook on this; I have read a lot of European history (the excellent Tom Holland's pieces for example).

That said we have a recent history of tolerance over here, abused by the extremists

What isn't being publicised so much is the voice of the tolerant Muslim community, who by being reasonable and above all, quiet, don't get the headlines to fight back in the media.

Islam is being set up as the next bogeyman after Communists, the decent Muslims really need to start pushing themselves into the news a bit more I think.


[ Parent ]
agreed. by clock (2.00 / 0) #101 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:26:05 PM EST
and yet, with the fall of the USSR, hollywood needs a bogeyman at least as much as washington does.  and since all Muslims are from the middle east and all of them hate america it's really, really handy.

and i agree with your attitude on history, etc.  i simply can't imagine, however, that any majority of the population over here has that kind of knowledge since that would require being above average and, well, most people aren't.

it would be nice to hear more from the quiet, reasonable folks but that doesn't make for good 24 hours news station fodder.

in short, we're all fucked.  let's get some guitars and rock out, shall we?


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
Indeed. by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #111 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 05:42:17 PM EST
Local Turkish Muslim kebab shop owner makes friendly banter with English customer won't even slow the presses, far less stop them.

So, acoustic or electric?  Whisky or rum to go with that?


[ Parent ]
well by clock (2.00 / 0) #115 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 09:17:51 PM EST
if we get some good whiskey, then I'm more for the acoustic.  get some good blues rollin' with that.  otherwise, under the influence of rum, it'll be all hardrock (80s vintage metal, most likely) all the time.

that's how i roll, yo.


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
We'll start by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #149 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:13:28 AM EST
With the rum. 

Then onto the whisky.


[ Parent ]
The Lebanese used to be quite by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #6 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 07:03:02 PM EST
fond of bikinis, rock 'n roll and fornification. Not so much now. You gotta keep a heel on the necks of the fundies, before shit gets out of control. It's too late for Lebanon and France will be lost soon too.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

Seriously? by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #14 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:10:05 AM EST
I don't buy that about France. Yeah, there's areas of Paris (Pte. de Clignancourt) and other big cities that are heavily populated by extremists but the vast majority of France is unlikely to be prized away from their wine and pastis.

[ Parent ]
I hope you're right. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #15 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:15:38 AM EST
In spite of my barbarous upbringing, I admire the French.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
lebanon is complicated by gzt (2.00 / 0) #17 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 08:01:09 AM EST
You do have a point. But, it's also true that it's a small country and a large portion of the Christian population fled the country because of the fighting. There are now more expatriate Lebanese Christians than, um, "patriate" Lebanese Christians. They also aren't an Islamic state, there's still no problem with bikinis, rock and roll, and fornication. But, yeah, it's not like it was in the 70s...

[ Parent ]
Blaspheme God in public there. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #19 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 10:18:33 AM EST
That's a year of your life down the shitter.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Try it in Alabama. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #39 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:15:40 PM EST
Then tell me all your troubles are the fault of the Muslims.

[ Parent ]
I did it every day for 6 months there. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #40 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:21:45 PM EST
Funny, nothing happened because of it. You mean the former Confederate state of Alabama, right?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Yep. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #52 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:13:51 PM EST
LA or one of the cities?

You can get away with it in Birmingham or Mobile, and absolutely in Huntsville, but not in Lower Alabama or really anywhere out in the country. Not publicly and obviously.

[ Parent ]
Anniston/Cheaha by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #70 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:33:23 PM EST
Yeah, that's country.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
No, that's a suburb of Birmingham. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #73 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:58:14 PM EST
Please to be trying again.

[ Parent ]
Like Tacoma's a suburb of Seattle, right? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #75 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:26:51 PM EST
Try again, with a better map.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
More like Bothell or Lynnwood. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #78 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 05:46:05 PM EST
And I've been there. The state park is nice, for Alabama.

[ Parent ]
Eh. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #84 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 07:31:58 PM EST
Those are more suburbs of Everett, especially Lynnwood. At any rate, let's agree to agree that Alabama sucks for the non-angler.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
St Nicholas, Manhattan by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #9 Thu Aug 19, 2010 at 08:39:44 PM EST
I love the idea that it'd be the Port Authority that's blocking progress on that, rather than, say, the parish committee of an Orthodox community (speaking as a parish committee member).

Ground Zero Mosque by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #12 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:11:58 AM EST
Seems like Death Panels: an enormous manufactured outpouring of rage over something that basically doesn't exist.

Is this just how US politics works from now on? Are we going to get one of these every six months or so, indefinitely?
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

welcome to the tea party by clock (2.00 / 0) #18 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 08:09:58 AM EST
n/t


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
Every six months? by BadDoggie (4.00 / 1) #22 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:23:37 AM EST
Try every Friday in summer, every other Friday during the rest of the year, all brought to you by Fox.

woof.

OMG WE'RE FUCKED! -- duxup ?

[ Parent ]
Looks like it by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #23 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:36:52 AM EST
Breaking News.

The story isn't the smug Euro americans are stupid, it is smug liberal american "poor are being exploited and we're too limp to play against the perpetrators."

[ Parent ]
Further by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #25 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:45:53 AM EST
Outrage.

Something must be done!


[ Parent ]
my friends currently living in Saudi tell me by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #21 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:19:30 AM EST
as soon as many Islamic people are out of Saudi airspace, they enjoy bikinis, rock and roll, fornication and booze along with the rest of us.

what happens outside of saudi... by gzt (4.00 / 1) #24 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:45:19 AM EST
...stays outside of saudi, I guess. but that's a minority of the population, those who can afford to fly out of saudi airspace. rules never apply to the affluent.

[ Parent ]
s/people/men by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #32 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:16:34 PM EST
FTFY. As long as there's a Muslim dude around, their wimminz don't get away with any rule breakin'.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
except with the muslim men by gzt (2.00 / 0) #33 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:53:56 PM EST
yeah, they're all over that sort of thing when it's not illegal.

[ Parent ]
My peeps say otherwise by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #34 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:55:09 PM EST
I have zero firsthand knowledge

[ Parent ]
The ones around here by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #43 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:28:52 PM EST
seem pretty beat-down and submissive around their men. Maybe that's why they're always enrolled in school - time away from the lads.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
i think by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #61 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:52:41 PM EST
they're a different ilk than the ones my friends are referring to.  they are legally allowed all freedoms, but choose to do as they do.

[ Parent ]
Also by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #62 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:05:54 PM EST
I'm in the same area and that observation is incorrect. There certainly are Muslim women who are subservient and obedient and less-than-the-dust-beneath-their-feet around here, but it isn't all of the local Muslim population nor even a significant fraction of it. I worked with several married Muslim women at my last contract gig; they were observant, they followed for example religious dietary restrictions, and they wore standard IT uniform (jeans or shorts and t-shirts), drove themselves to work if they didn't ride the bus, and several of them were quite practiced and enjoyable at harmless flirting.

[ Parent ]
Good job. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #71 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:34:59 PM EST
Our anecdotes have neutralised one another.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
that may be true by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #81 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 06:19:43 PM EST
But he was talking about Islam and Muslims, not Wahabists

--
Click
[ Parent ]
Funny. by Captain Tenille (2.00 / 0) #50 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:03:37 PM EST
" <meta charset="utf-8">If I really had my preferences enacted, the religion of Islam would cease to exist" 

It's so weird. I feel the exact same way about Christianity.


---------

/* You are not expected to understand this. */


And once again, the comment editor acts up. n/t by Captain Tenille (2.00 / 0) #51 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:08:07 PM EST
 

---------

/* You are not expected to understand this. */


[ Parent ]
I don't think it's funny at all. by gzt (4.00 / 1) #60 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:49:07 PM EST
I think it's entirely rational of you. I think many philosophical schools can see the value of opposing schools of thought, but religions, in large part, cannot. As a Christian, I see no value in Rabbinic Judaism, Islam, Protestantism, and other such things, being perversions of The Way, and little value in non-"Abrahamic" religion (perhaps some use in their philosophical aspects, see above note on philosophy, but "the gods of the nations are demons"). An atheist would probably see no value in any of it except as a historical curiosity in the development of philosophy and science, and I don't blame them. I look with suspicion on "pluralists" and fans of "diversity" because they seem more patronizing than people who think these things are valueless or even have negative value.

[ Parent ]
What if my religion by notafurry (4.00 / 1) #64 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:11:10 PM EST
Places value on the notion of religious diversity?

The pagan path I follow specifically establishes and encourages the notion that not everyone should follow the same path, for the seeker defines their own goal. Religious diversity is to be celebrated for by creating many paths to the divine we all as humanity build a network of means for reaching it. Your path is no less valid than mine; it is simply different, and I wish you well on it. Am I then patronizing or dismissive of the value of faith?

[ Parent ]
Religious diversity is to be celebrated? by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #93 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 01:27:01 AM EST
I'm agnostic and I hope to see all religion fall out of favor in my lifetime, especially the Abrahamic sect which advocates killing anyone who doesn't worship the way they do and treats women like chattel. They can collapse first, thanks.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Have you read the old testament? by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #114 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:59:15 PM EST
...it advocates exactly that.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Yes, I have. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #117 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:06:49 AM EST
That's the bit Islam seems stuck in.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
"Islam" by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #120 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 12:30:07 PM EST
Is "Christianity" one belief system?
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Generally, yes. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #132 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 04:45:21 PM EST
Jesus is the son of God, died for man's sins and will return at the End Days to save Righteous and forsake the Wicked.

That's Xtianity in a nutshell. The Devil's in the details.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Devil's in the details by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #135 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 05:26:14 PM EST
Same with Islam.

800 years ago, Islam was dominated by reasonable people while Christianity was dominated by violence.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
800 years ago by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #138 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 09:16:21 PM EST
Islam was founded by a grown man who fucked a 9-year old child. Feel free to White Knight for the Muslims, but I won't. Yeah, I know they contributed to math and science, buy they did that in spite of their religion.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
History by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #143 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:57:11 PM EST
Islam was founded 1300 years ago, not 800 years ago.  Please keep this straight so your bigotry doesn't look stupid(er).
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
Whatevs. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #144 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 11:43:51 PM EST
1300 years, or 13 years. It's irrelevant. It's a religion for goatherds, created by pedophilic merchant. It's an affront to civilized persons in the 21st Century and no one with any sense about them gives a whit about Islam.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
goatherds by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #146 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 05:50:15 AM EST
It is interesting that the main dominant (by which I mean noisy) religions are all basically goatherd ones. Says something interesting about the needs of humanity to force things into a simpler shape.

[ Parent ]
Except by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #151 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:18:14 PM EST
Every farmer (and, incidentally, every serious Terry Pratchett fan) knows there's a significant difference between a goatherd and a shepherd. Christianity is a Shepherd religion. Islam is a Goatherd religion.

* In a nutshell, the difference is that sheep are stupid and must be driven. Goats are intelligent and must be led.

[ Parent ]
Goats do better in the desert. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #155 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:48:26 PM EST
Ever seen sheep climb a tree to get to one last green leaf? Goats do it.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
No wonder by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #147 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:23:08 AM EST
No muslims invite you to their houses.
---
[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
I'll try to not lose sleep over it. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #156 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:51:55 PM EST
I'll eat at their restaurants though. Food's good.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Except by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #152 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 12:25:15 PM EST
Islam is a religion for merchants and scientists. It emphasizes scholarship, racial tolerance to a surprising degree, universal literacy, and a strong sense of family and community, all positive traits more or less invented by Islam and later adopted by Christianity.

And 1300 years ago, fucking a 9 year old wasn't exactly uncommon. You can find it distasteful if you like, but it's sort of like hating an American figure of the 1950s for homophobia. You can do it, and it doesn't mean they're right, but it's just plain stupid.

[ Parent ]
Islam emphasizes those traits by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #154 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 01:45:17 PM EST
primarily for the purposes of reading the Koran and spreading Islam. How charmingly circular. I'm not impressed.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
It's still better than by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #157 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:36:15 PM EST
"You don't need to be able to read, your priest can do that for you."

Christianity's version of the same thing. And Islam's version of spreading the holy word, originally, was through conversation and persuasion. Admittedly they took to spreading the good word through the sword like a duck to water, but pay attention to where they learned it.

[ Parent ]
Well, Luther broke that monopoly. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #159 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:42:32 PM EST
Too many wackadoo imams with too much autonomy in Islam.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Religons can also take the opposite approach by lm (2.00 / 0) #82 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 06:58:26 PM EST
Religions can be ranked in the order by which they approach the truth just as easily as they can be ranked in the order by which the are distant from the truth.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
ranking by gzt (2.00 / 0) #87 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 08:25:39 PM EST
Yes, but that doesn't mean we think they should still exist.

[ Parent ]
Depends on what you mean by should still exist by lm (2.00 / 0) #88 Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 09:32:22 PM EST
All other things held equal, a good case can be made that the world is a better place if religions closer to the truth than others exist even if they fall short of the truth in this or that regard.

In such a view, the only religions that absolutely ought not to exist are the ones that are the furthest from the truth.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
as soon as that one's eliminated, there's a new by garlic (2.00 / 0) #108 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:10:55 PM EST
one furthest from the truth.


[ Parent ]
You're right on that by lm (2.00 / 0) #112 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 06:15:43 PM EST
But that presupposes that (a) religions can be entirely eradicated and (b) that at the lowest end of the scale that there are not multiple religions equally distant from the truth.

That said, something Breaker said made me paraphrase things in a slightly different way. Perhaps rather than a relative scale one ought to use an absolute scale. So long as a religion contains any truth it would be a net good to some extent. But I've not really thought that through all the way.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Ah but then by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #98 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 04:13:13 AM EST
Who defines "truth"?


[ Parent ]
In context, no one by lm (2.00 / 0) #99 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 09:11:40 AM EST
What gzt or myself believe is true is irrelevant to the discussion. HIs position seems to be that, given that there is truth, religions which are are not fully true are a net evil. My position is that, given that there is truth, religions which contain some of it are a net good. One doesn't need to define what truth is to have meaningful discussion as to wthether or not that are equally valid ways of looking at the implications that hold if truth exists.

Now, you could argue that there is no truth and therefore the whole discussion is meaningless. But then I would just laugh at you because if there is no truth then the assertion you made cannot be true.

This should not be taken to mean that I think the question of the meaning of truth is not an important one. I just don't think it's one that's relevant to the dispute between gzt and I.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
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Fair enough. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #100 Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:15:38 AM EST
One of these days I'd like to sit down with a bottle of good whisky and some cigars and talk religion and philosophy with you, lm.

You'd learn nothing but I'd walk away enriched I think.


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I'd like to make a third on that by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #126 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 02:05:58 PM EST
I'll contribute a bottle. We find a couple more and we could make it a good poker game, which I find goes very well with those discussions.

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I'm crap at poker by lm (2.00 / 0) #127 Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 04:13:33 PM EST
My dad could have killed at professional poker had he wanted. When playing double deck bid euchre with him, he could give the odds of someone going alone based on seeing his (my dad's) cards. At the end of the hand, he could tell you  which cards were played by who. The man had a uncanny memory for that sort of thing.

Me, not so much.

But count me in on the whiskey and cigars.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
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That'd be two bottles by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #150 Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 11:17:47 AM EST
I'd like to remember the discussion afterwards though!


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