Print Story Talking of that football thing ...
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By yicky yacky (Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 08:34:45 AM EST) footie monkeys, football, monkeys (all tags)

England fans lose their reputation for violence.

"This hasn't happened by accident. There has been a cultural shift around England support."



"What we're seeing is that those that pose a risk of disorder are kept at home through the imposition of football banning orders," he added, referring to the 3,143 people banned from travelling for the duration of the tournament.

"That has allowed people to travel here that perhaps wouldn't have considered it if they thought there were risks of disorder. I have spoken to dozens and dozens of fans and there are loads of husbands and wives, fathers and sons, couples who have come away with friends for a holiday combined with the football."

 

O RLY?

 

They seem to be placing the credit for this squarely on police measures allowing for an extant cultural shift to flourish.

I think there certainly has been a cultural shift around football in the last decade, and it's a very good thing too, but whether it's sufficient to explain this phenomenon is ... hmmm ... unclear.

What's more likely?

  • A cultural shift combined-with and encouraged-by police practices has eradicated the violent minority among the England support.

  • A cultural shift and police practices combined with the tournament being held in South Africa mean that:

    • Vast numbers of the less-well-off fans are priced-out.

    • The racist element is uncomfortable with the idea of finding themselves in a country which, despite being 'the rainbow nation', is overwhelmingly black.

    • The disruptive element is a tad unwilling to test South African law enforcement's somewhat 'untimorous' approach to policing violent incidents.

We saw a similar type of thing in Japan: No trouble. Then the Euros in Portugal: Trouble, albeit of a lower magnitude than in previous years.

Call me cynical if you must, but I think I'll wait for Poland/Ukraine before believing the welcome shift is a permanent thing.

 

Also ...

Unruly Kiwis. Unruly. Kiwis. Unruly. Kiwis.

I didn't know they had it in them. Does not compute ...

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Talking of that football thing ... | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
I was having this exact conversation by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #1 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 09:13:50 AM EST
With a mate the other day, largely with the same conclusion (minus the racism bit).

It boils down to cost, and that the hardcore nutters have to surrender their passports for the duration.

We then went on to draw parallels with the incarceration of criminals - if they're in jail they're not in your front room nicking your DVD player.  Same thing, just on a bigger geographical scale.




Or as a colleague just exclaimed by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #2 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 09:18:50 AM EST
Cultural shift or is it just that South African beer is piss-weak? 

Are our fans just not getting properly tanked?




I will never understand this. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #7 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 05:07:54 PM EST
SA has all the elements of a brewing culture, in spades. Where is the world-renowned SA beer? By all rights, they should have 2-3 world class brews. Why not?

You can't handle my complete attention.
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Hot climate by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #8 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 06:34:02 PM EST
Their main beers, Castle ("Helping ugly peple get laid since 1878!") and the Zim Windhoek are hot weather beers.

Pretty thin tasting, they go down great ice cold when it's 35C+ outside.

In cold and rainy England, served just a little chilled, they just taste weak and reedy.

Last time I was out there, they were both >5% so proper lagers.


[ Parent ]

So they simply don't have the by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #9 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 10:41:11 PM EST
drive or vision to make marketable beers? No Export lines? Too bad. Lot of good land for wheat and hops there.

You can't handle my complete attention.
[ Parent ]

Wine is more their thing by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #10 Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 05:46:44 AM EST
And Savannah cider "it's dry but you can drink it".

But yes, it is surprising that they've not done what Fosters did; massive marketing campaign.  No one in Oz drinks Fosters, but they've created the illusion over here that it's all that the Aussies drink.


[ Parent ]

It's like the Yakima Valley here. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #11 Sat Jun 26, 2010 at 08:06:36 AM EST
They could grow excellent wine grapes, wheat and hops in the same locale. Shame that.

You can't handle my complete attention.
[ Parent ]

There is still trouble in the UK by nebbish (4.00 / 3) #3 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 10:51:25 AM EST
But there is apparently an informal agreement between the police and the press that stops it from being reported. So you basically never hear anything about it, and it is isolated and kept amongst a few knobheads.

If you look on a hooligan forum though (I had a look at the Leeds Service Crew one a while back to find out why a pub had been trashed) you'll see it's still alive and well.

I think there's probably a bit of both going on, legal and cultural, but the control orders are definitely needed.

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It's political correctness gone mad!


This is an important point... by Metatone (4.00 / 2) #4 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 12:02:13 PM EST
Many of the troublemakers have migrated down away from the EPL to the lower leagues, too... 

[ Parent ]

Good point. by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #5 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 12:12:23 PM EST

I know Cardiff still have occasionally-serious issues with it (family down there).

I'm not debating the effectiveness of control orders -- they're definitely both needed and a good thing -- I'm just sceptical about the depth and longevity of this so-called 'culture change'. It almost sounds as if the police are 'rainmaking' while they can ("You've paid us to stop the trouble. Look! It's stopped."). If some of their statements are correct then, by definition, it shouldn't come back in a hurry.

Poland/Ukraine will be a good yardstick. Not only is it easy and cheap to travel there, but central Europe still has a bit of that element in some of their clubs. If there's no trouble there, it'll be a very good sign.


----
Vacuity abhors a vacuum.
[ Parent ]

Heh, just a little bit by Dr Thrustgood (4.00 / 1) #6 Fri Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43:06 PM EST
Here in Warsaw, tickets to Legia's games come with a statement on them that you accept any physical violence the security teams see fit

Poland/Ukraine will be... interesting ;)



[ Parent ]

Talking of that football thing ... | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback