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Diary
By MillMan (Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:00:55 AM EST) (all tags)
really just for the dating lulz.


Boys want sex, girls want relationships!
Executive summary: made her dinner, had good conversation, we flirted and she nervously tossed her hair around and made a mess of it which was adorable, finished our wine while talking for an hour on the couch, popped in a movie, snuggled up on the couch, started massaging each other's arms, ended up kissing and massaging for a while, ended up in my bedroom where I told her about the photos on my wall, more kissing and touching, eventually I've got my hand in her hair and I'm starting to pull on it while kissing her and she's moaning...

And she throws me off and says "I don't want to have sex until I'm in a committed relationship." And proceeds to go off on a rant on how okcupid is this bullshit place where people go to just hookup and says "you have like four dates lined up for the next week, right?"

I was speechless - mostly because my speech centers were not exactly the parts of my brain running the show at the time. IIRC I got some words out after blinking at her with a dropped jaw for approximately two minutes.

Jesus. I just...my hat is off to anyone who makes it work in this emotionally barren disaster of a society. I haven't a clue.

Massage school
In "trying make life less barren" news, school starts next March, which I've probably mentioned several times now. It's going to be tough to make it full time at work all the way to March. I took half of last Thursday and all of Friday off for mental health reasons. I'm going to ask my boss if I can work Monday / Wednesday / Friday while in school. If not, I will quit. I am looking for other potential part time jobs now.

Motorsickle
Well, that's still a ton of fun. I had an awesome ride last Saturday, doing my favorite route through the city, twisty hills, and coast, and it was sunny and 70 for most of the ride. Had some good chats with other riders at Alice's restaurant.

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update | 49 comments (49 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
um. wow. by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #1 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 02:48:27 AM EST
ok, "i don't want sex yet", fair enough. just letting you know what the boundaries are, then you can keep cuddling, right?

where the fuck the rant came from, or the "you have four dates lined up", though. jesus. judge people by your preconceived notions much?

If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

yeah by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #2 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 03:04:57 AM EST
it felt like a flashback to college - where no one knew what they were doing.

Although I don't think I ever had something quite like this happen back then - it was typically either girls pouncing on me or me failing with the standard nice guy routine in which nothing happens to begin with.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

/should be a reply to aph's comment by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #3 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 03:05:42 AM EST

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
^--- what he said by R343L (2.00 / 0) #4 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 03:29:41 AM EST
"Um, wow" indeed. First date? And she goes to your place and then gets huffy because you might have other dates lined up? Classy!

Yes, in a perfectly world going over to your place wouldn't mean anything but to a woman who thinks dating more than one person at a time is inappropriate, it usually does mean something.

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot

(Comment Deleted) by aggressive cyclist (4.00 / 10) #5 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 03:33:53 AM EST

This comment has been deleted by aggressive cyclist



I made that joke with my coworker by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #23 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:58:28 PM EST
while rehashing the date for his lol'ing pleasure.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
*innocently whistling* by yankeehack (2.00 / 0) #6 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 06:27:50 AM EST
Jesus, at least I cannot be blamed for that one. I was 3000 miles away.

Pro tip: She was figuring out how far you were going to go before she stopped you. If the statement came out earlier, you would have thought she was really crazy.

"Nice" guys don't try on the first date.
"...she dares to indulge in the secret sport. You can't be a MILF with the F, at least in part because the M is predicated upon it."-CBB

And by try by yankeehack (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 06:30:22 AM EST
I mean, a nice guy can give it the old college try (maybe a hand in a place, that can be brushed off without it being too awkward) but also just can roll with it if it doesn't work out that night.
"...she dares to indulge in the secret sport. You can't be a MILF with the F, at least in part because the M is predicated upon it."-CBB
[ Parent ]
how far he was going to go by gzt (4.00 / 3) #10 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 10:41:01 AM EST
Pro tip: games like this are stupid. How was she to know he wasn't one second away from saying the same?

Oh, yeah, she knows. Just like she knew he had four other dates lined up.

The real pro tip: make sure your goals line up with your behavior or you'll be surprised when your results don't match your goals. Millman's did. This girl's didn't.

[ Parent ]
Nice girls say no. by ambrosen (4.00 / 2) #11 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 10:52:17 AM EST
Well, if we're playing that game, they do.

If we're playing the 'make sure every increase in intimacy's mutually consensual' game, then the appropriate response would be
"so sorry, I got carried away. Let's cool it a bit"

[ Parent ]
Nope, she is really crazy by curmudgeon (4.00 / 2) #12 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:01:16 AM EST
Sane person tip: The time for the "no sex on the first date" line was long before it moved to the bedroom.  Not after they resumed necking in said bedroom.

Also, "nice" guys usually don't get a second date.  And when they do, they don't get laid on the 2nd, 3rd, or even 10th date, because they've long since been moved to the friends ladder.

This place is great for keeping marriges together.  Ain't no way that grass is greener.  No point in trading celibate and sane for celibate and batshit.
---
Get over it.
[ Parent ]
I will by yankeehack (4.00 / 1) #15 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:32:32 AM EST
give you the point about the line needing to be uttered when they were on the couch. Got that.

However, you saying that nice guys don't get a second date isn't true.

You know what was going through her head? "Why do I want to sleep with someone if I don't know I will see them again?"
"...she dares to indulge in the secret sport. You can't be a MILF with the F, at least in part because the M is predicated upon it."-CBB

[ Parent ]
I don't doubt it by curmudgeon (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:56:31 PM EST
Hyberbole aside, very, very few people are inentionally psychopatic.  The problem (and I think you agree) is in the waiting until disrobing is immient to either actually finally have that thought or (worse) having that thought all along and waiting until that point to express it.   If waiting that long was some sort of test as you initially said, that' just batshit and life is too short for batshit.

True, some nice guys do get second dates.  Sadly, many women misinterpret "nice" as "weak" and "insecure".  Of course, many guys (/me looks in the mirror) ARE weak and insecure.  Meh, what I know about women and dating would fit on the head of pin, with plenty of room for fairies to dance.
---
Get over it.
[ Parent ]
Stop the bashing by littlestar (4.00 / 1) #30 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:26:15 PM EST
of yourself. Now. Stop it. Decide to today to accept yourself (with your flaws) you are not perfect, you have never been perfect and never will be, you have made mistakes and will make more (take the time to LEARN from these, so you can make DIFFERENT decisions). So, you may have been weak and insecure. I believe it. Today you are what YOU CHOOSE to be. PLEASE choose something different if it makes you happier I'm tired of your subtle digs at yourself. Stop that.
*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
Choices by curmudgeon (2.00 / 0) #33 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 03:48:08 PM EST
Largely, the choices were made long ago.  It's difficult to choose to be happy with the consequences of those choices.  Choices I could make today all clearly have bad outcomes.  How do you choose between a bunch of all clearly very bad options?

And I didn't think the digs were all that subtle, I'll have to try harder next time.  ;)

Long, rambling, PM sent with lots more detail and confusion.
---
Get over it.
[ Parent ]
yeah man what she said. by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #40 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 10:35:53 PM EST
There's but one slot for loser in the Husi-phere

--
Click
[ Parent ]
stop bashing yourself, too. by aphrael (4.00 / 1) #41 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:10:08 PM EST
bashing yourself isn't going to help. IMLE, it just makes things worse.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]
oh no I wasn't refering to me. by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #48 Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 06:25:55 PM EST


--
Click
[ Parent ]
Answer by littlestar (4.00 / 2) #29 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:22:53 PM EST
Because it's fun and it feels GREAT! 
*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
I concur! by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #39 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 10:35:09 PM EST
I've gotten a few second dates.

Still single though.

--
Click

[ Parent ]
I don't think by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #42 Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 12:39:33 AM EST
she was crazy or malicious at all. More like emotionally unaware and/or inexperienced. Not that I'd hang out with her again. She's the sort of person I should have been with when I was her age.

It wasn't a nice guy / friend ladder thing either - sort of the opposite.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
Ahhhhh by curmudgeon (2.00 / 0) #45 Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 11:48:41 AM EST
I admit I had not considered the "immature and clueless" option, that is a quite reasonable explanation.   My bad, carry on.
---
Get over it.
[ Parent ]
It was our second date by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:57:02 PM EST
With online dating I wouldn't make someone dinner for a first date - I almost always do a coffee or beer date to establish some mutual chemistry.

I'm fine going five or six dates before sex - beyond that I assume the person has control and trust issues, or in rarer cases, isn't really interested in physical intimacy anyway.

As others have noted there is a good way to prod a guy in that direction, but this girl chose to projectile vomit her emotions all over me in my bed.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
I get where you are going... by yankeehack (2.00 / 0) #26 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:13:17 PM EST
Two other things - were you guys drinking at all? I could possibly see being a little bit looser if she had a glass or two of wine.

Secondly, I wonder if she had some recent (ergh) breakup that caused the comment. On the other hand then that is crazy.
"...she dares to indulge in the secret sport. You can't be a MILF with the F, at least in part because the M is predicated upon it."-CBB

[ Parent ]
see my comment to littlestar by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #27 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:19:39 PM EST
and yes, we were buzzed on wine.

I'm not angry about it - it's just been a dead, empty year for me and this felt like the universe kicking me in the balls for its own amusement.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
Not at all true by Driusan (2.00 / 0) #46 Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 11:53:55 AM EST
The universe was kicking you in the balls for the amusement of us all.

--
Vive le Montréal libre.
[ Parent ]
lulz and empathy by MillMan (4.00 / 1) #47 Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 01:01:46 PM EST
are all I ask for.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
In the bed? by sugar spun (2.00 / 0) #49 Sat Nov 20, 2010 at 06:35:53 AM EST
How indecent.

Did she bring a hot sister to clean up the mess?

[ Parent ]
huh? by aphrael (4.00 / 2) #38 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 07:13:43 PM EST
"Nice" guys don't try on the first date.

I don't get it.

I mean, I would agree that "nice guys don't push their date to go somewhere the date doesn't want to go". That's just implicit in taking your date's autonomy seriously, and in recognizing him/her as a person rather than an object.

But ... if both parties are into it, cuddling on a first date seems like totally normal behavior. (Hell, cuddling with friends you aren't dating, for that matter). And if that cuddling leads elswhere ... and both parties are sending signals that show that they're ok with it ... then what's not "nice" about it?

The niceness, or not, comes from taking your partner seriously as a human being and making sure that whatever's happening is going to make you both happy.

It doesn't come from compliance with some artificial rules.

She was figuring out how far you were going to go before she stopped you.

That's just fucked up. Go as far as you're willing to go, then call a hold. Don't lead your partner to think you're willing to go further than you are and then bitchslap them when they think - quite reasonably, based on your behavior - that everything's fine.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
That's what you get by Herring (4.00 / 4) #8 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:09:00 AM EST
for buying rhohypnol off the internet.

christ, we're all old now - StackyMcRacky
wow. by clock (4.00 / 2) #9 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 09:27:03 AM EST
that was a stunning fail on her part.  however, i would look at this as one of nature's many ways of letting you know that you should get the fuck away from that thing!  an outburst like that is not unlike the rattle of certain snakes or that massive red blob on the abdomen of a given variety of spider.

run far, run fast.


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

Why you should date younger women: by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:17:25 AM EST
Courtesy hand jobs. It's not even sex to them.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

she was 26! by MillMan (4.00 / 1) #24 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:00:16 PM EST
in this city that's not even "crap I need the marriage and the babies" territory. Although what you are referring to is something I'd probably have to hit up the 20 something hipster bars to find.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
Dang! Well, that's the right age bracket. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #32 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:49:00 PM EST
Next time this happens, give her a kiss-kiss, then smile and show her the door. She will be on you like a wildcat within a matter of days. It's harsh, but when women manipulate your mind and not your hog, it's okay to work on their always-vulnerable self-image. Take her down a notch or three.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
WTF by littlestar (4.00 / 2) #14 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:23:54 AM EST
What a psycho. Clearly she has some serious issues she needs to work out (as seemingly do most people.... le sigh).

I also wonder what girls thing is with no sex unless in a committed relationship; how the hell do you know if you want a committed relationship until you see how he is in bed? I mean, seriously. If he can't make you cum who wants to stick around or deal with break up shit. But, unfortunately I do know the reasons and they are sad and they make me angry about stupid society telling stupid girls that they have to be chaste or some shit for someone unknown stupid reason that some little dick man made up thousands of years ago. Meh. What a shitty ending to your night though eh? Crackers.

I cross fingers for you next encounter being with a less warped human.



*twinkle*twinkle*


sex and commitment by R343L (4.00 / 1) #16 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:07:50 PM EST
"No sex unless in a committed relationship" for a lot of people actually means "no sex until I can see the likelihood of a committed relationship" -- that is, once a person knows the other well enough to think such a thing is possible. This is actually to my mind a perfectly reasonable position to hold and probably fairly common.

Granted, this is probably not the case here as she appears to be crazy.

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot

[ Parent ]
It is common by littlestar (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:56:26 PM EST
that seems for sure. I still think it's silly.
If you know how to undo a small package and you are single why the fuck would you need to stop mid heavy breathe to go home just cause you don't know the person that well. Women's answers to this question would be varied depending on how they rationalise but the reality for most would be "because you're a woman and society tells you that's what good girls do" (who don't just want to have sex, cause that would be bad to just wanna have sex, dontcha know). Why do women feel they have to know someone well to have sex with them? Who told them that this is a necessary thing? (Men do not have this funny hang up interestingly) If you're not hurting anyone, what makes just having sex to have sex a bad decision? It's a beautiful natural need that we all have, plus it's nice and it's good for the human body and mind.

So, is it reasonable to feel that you shouldn't have sex unless you foresee a long-term relationship (what about this makes it suddenly okay? You don't know that marriage is coming soo what's the big difference? It somehow makes a difference to think that the other person may possibly (but not for sure) fall in love with you? Why?) No. I don't think it is reasonable. Is it in keeping with what our society raises women to think about themselves and sex, well, unfortunately, yes it does. I repeat, MEH.

*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
This isn't as gendered as you think by gzt (2.00 / 0) #34 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 04:01:42 PM EST
Shockingly, there are men who have similar scruples.

[ Parent ]
HAhaha by littlestar (4.00 / 1) #35 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 04:42:12 PM EST
love your word choice. Made me think of that cheesy game from way back when.

Indeed there are many, many men who have these same scruples, and they too can question themselves as to what intrinsically is bad about having concensual, protected sex with another person? I suspect generally their answer would have something to do with some floaty guy in the sky telling them it's bad or they wouldn't really know WHY it's just, well, it's wrong that's why! I have had this convo with boys and girls before. It is always hard to remove yourself from your society's entrenched beliefs to look at them and roll them around to figure out what they really mean or are worth. 

There are other reasons not to have sex with someone on a first date of course, or to not on a second or tenth date. My husband has refused to give sex out to girls, just as I have refused to give sex out, but there were real reasons such as, " You can't handle this chick! You are too fucked up!" Or perhaps, " I think this would mean more to you then you are letting on"  or even, "Nah, I don't really feel like that now". But to be making out heavily with someone but not allow yourself to go that tiny extra step to sex (cause that's just different!) is silly to my mind. (I recall stories from girls and boys where they did EVERYTHING but sex, so that was ok! Hahaha it's okay to make someone cum without them being your boyfriend but only without them sticking their penis into you.) I suppose it's just my atheist, non-caring, turbo-slut view where people should be happy and do things that make them happy (as long as they are not hurting anyone in the process). I'm funny that way, those are my scruples.
*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
Little known fact... by codemonkey uk (4.00 / 2) #17 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:28:41 PM EST
Sex sometime results in babies.

--- Thad ---
Almost as Smart As you.
[ Parent ]
Gosh by littlestar (2.00 / 0) #18 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:46:22 PM EST
It's too bad there isn't like, ten or more ways to stop that from occurring. That would be so helpful. 
*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
They are neither 100% reliable by codemonkey uk (4.00 / 1) #43 Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 05:09:21 AM EST
Nor are they without drawbacks.

Condoms can split, slip off, or cause allergies.  The pill can affect mood and judgement.  The idea of a monthly auto-abortion (reasonable or not) can put people off having a coil.  And so on and so forth.

And a termination is a serious consideration for many women.

Just saying, you know, avoiding casual sex outside serious relationships is an understandable position for a woman to take. 

It doesn't have to mean they are some how dysfunctional or neurotic.

--- Thad ---
Almost as Smart As you.

[ Parent ]
I agree [n/t] by littlestar (2.00 / 0) #44 Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 09:47:06 AM EST
 
*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
Only if you do it wrong [n/t] by Herring (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 12:47:31 PM EST


christ, we're all old now - StackyMcRacky
[ Parent ]
only if you don't do it "wrong" n/t by hulver (4.00 / 1) #31 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:41:34 PM EST

--
Cheese is not a hat. - clock
[ Parent ]
So judgemental [n/t] by Herring (2.00 / 0) #37 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 07:03:18 PM EST


christ, we're all old now - StackyMcRacky
[ Parent ]
she was totally projecting by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #25 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:13:04 PM EST
Whichever boy or girl hurt her little ego the last go round almost surely "had four dates lined up for next week." She mentioned the existence of this person. I mentioned college because it reminds me of the vaguely self-abusive misogynist confirmation-bias crap I often pulled back then - "stupid bitches will only date guys who treat them badly" - then repeatedly going back to the same person / personality type to confirm it.

LTR-wise I'm only into women who think like you do. Alphagirl (most recent ex) unsurprisingly had the same take. So better that this happened on the second date than some later date.

Crackers is right - I was getting excited to get to know this person, right after we fuck and I tease her clit with my tongue until she begs me to stop, and then...that.

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
Hahahaha... by littlestar (2.00 / 0) #28 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 01:20:42 PM EST
See!??! She doesn't know what she's missing! She could have gone home with a great big smile on her face feeling relaxed and sweet, instead... not. The begging to stop option sounds much more enticing to me. It is too bad for her and annoying for you, but as you say, better to find out now and not waste any real emotions on the poor girl. 
*twinkle*twinkle*


[ Parent ]
if anything by MillMan (4.00 / 4) #36 Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 06:40:56 PM EST
it breaks my heart that it was the experience of physical pleasure that made her say "this has to stop immediately."

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
update | 49 comments (49 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback