Print Story Boy scouts
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By ucblockhead (Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:51:24 PM EST) (all tags)
The FoML has a new friend.


This new friend is in the cub scouts.  The mother is a den mother.  The FoML now wants to join the cub scouts.

This being the feeder organization for the Boy Scouts, which does not allow atheists, agnostics or gays.

I am a bit irked that my wife didn't properly nip this in the bud...sigh...

< Attn: R343L & Komet infidels | So what am I supposed to do with this blood I brought? >
Boy scouts | 82 comments (82 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
How seriously does the local chapter by georgeha (4.00 / 5) #1 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 12:56:23 PM EST
care about atheists, agnostics or gays.

Girl Scouts appear to have avoided the whole atheists, agnostics or gays controversy by Clintonesque measures.


Dunno by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #3 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:30:24 PM EST
Probably not much.  Since the school he is in is run by a non Christian Sect, I highly doubt there's much right-wing wackiness going on.  Though apparently the Boy Scouts are fine with non-Christian Gods, just not denial (or doubt) of them all.

My concern is two fold:

  1. Supporting an organization that I find vile.
  2. Having the kid get deep into it only to run into crap because of his parents' beliefs.

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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
As far as 2, don't show him money by georgeha (4.00 / 2) #5 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:35:10 PM EST
FOML will have to learn to live with a world that doesn't agree with everything his family thinks, I don't know if Cub Scouts is a gentle way to do that or not.


[ Parent ]
The issue by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:41:06 PM EST
I don't want the kid getting thrown out at 14 after getting really involved.
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[ Parent ]
After a short time as a cub... by Vulch (4.00 / 1) #15 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:17:38 PM EST
I landed up in the Woodcraft Folk, years later I heard one of the leaders explain it to someone as "Mixed scouts and guides without the military bollocks" which is pretty accurate. Fills a similar niche to organisations like the Red Falcons in other bits Europe, probably not available in the colonies due to being 1930s style socialist in outlook.



[ Parent ]
in the bay area by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #24 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:27:49 PM EST
it might not be as strict as elsewhere. Have you thought about asking them?

"Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises." -Krugman

[ Parent ]
I am sure it isn't by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #25 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:30:44 PM EST
...but supporting an organization that holds these sorts of views makes me queasy.
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[ Parent ]
Other than the religion and gays angles by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #8 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:46:52 PM EST
which are huge, the Boy Scouts are a pretty good organization. Some of the troops (especially if affiliated with Unitarian churches) are very tolerant.

Kids, especially suburban ones, can learn lots of things that will be useful if the Zombie Apocalypse comes.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
not so much anymore by LilFlightTest (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:08:40 PM EST
they can't touch things that might possibly hurt them anymore, so many of the skills will be theoretical.
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if de-virgination results in me being able to birth hammerhead sharks, SIGN ME UP!!! --misslake
[ Parent ]
riiight by wumpus (4.00 / 1) #49 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 09:23:37 PM EST
Q. How do you start a fire without matches (or lighter)?
A. Turn your back on a tenderfoot (roughly an 11 year old scout).

Wumpus

[ Parent ]
'vile'? by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.25 / 4) #17 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:48:17 PM EST

The hyperbole, it burns.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
I find homophobia "vile" by ucblockhead (4.00 / 5) #20 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:03:53 PM EST
...and it is not hyperbole.
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Awwww, that's hardcore. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (1.00 / 1) #33 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:11:57 PM EST

I find homophobia nostalgic, at best, and laughable, at worst. I find beheading people "vile". Relativity.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Yes, well by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #35 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:28:51 PM EST
You should remember that other people have different views before labeling other people's expressions "hyperbole".

I also find brussels sprouts vile.  I am sure you can figure out a way to bring in Islamic politics to dispute that bit of English usage.

In any case, given your oft expressed view of not giving a shit about things that don't effect you, I am not surprised you find homophobia amusing.  I suspect the kid hanging off a fence in Wyoming had a different view.
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[ Parent ]
Why should I remember that? by MohammedNiyalSayeed (1.00 / 1) #40 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:34:17 PM EST

Nobody else does that before they spew their retarded beliefs on the rest of the world as if they were based in rational thought and fact. The bar is set low. I cannot be held to any higher standard without the holder finding disappointment.

I reserve the word "vile" for things that invoke a visceral nauseating response in me. The notion that you think brussel sprouts are "vile" is indicative to me that the word means very little to you. For instance, "vile" things, to me, require action, if possible. (Use caution in any assertion that I have not acted on my finding "Islamic politics" vile; first, I didn't mention Islamic politics, I mentioned the act of beheading, as I find beheading vile, not Islam, and secondly, because I've recently made a decision which may possibly put my life on the line in order to fight that which I find "vile".) Blogging about said things wouldn't constitute "action" in my estimation, and, in particular, blogging about them where those in question will never, ever read what is written, is even further from action than blogging, itself.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
That's nice by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #44 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:34:35 PM EST
But I am pretty sure I don't give a fuck.
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[ Parent ]
Hopefully your son by MohammedNiyalSayeed (1.00 / 2) #45 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:38:15 PM EST
will turn out a better human being than you, either due to auto-reacting against you, or via the eventual unavoidable influence of the outside world. Good luck to him.
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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
(Comment Deleted) by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #51 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 10:08:00 PM EST

This comment has been deleted by ucblockhead



[ Parent ]
?! by aphrael (4.00 / 3) #52 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 10:18:45 PM EST
bringing someone's child into a debate in this way is pretty much a demonstration that you are incapable of civil discourse.

i understand that comments from me are something you are unlikely as a general rule to take seriously, but: you pretty well crossed the fucking line there.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
You missed where the subject of this diary by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.50 / 2) #62 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 03:14:52 PM EST

is, in fact, FoHL.

You make a pretty good target on your high horse, chief.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
You sir by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #53 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 11:28:37 PM EST
Are taking words on a website way to seriously.

And for one who disdains the words of others, you seem to have a serious inability to deal with people who don't take your own words as golden.

I honestly, really, don't give a fuck about what your definition of "vile" is.  But you, sir, seem way too damn concerned with mine.  Why is that?
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
I'm not concerned enough to act by MohammedNiyalSayeed (1.00 / 1) #61 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 03:13:48 PM EST

by pressuring Congress to make laws that prohibit your language abuse, but I am concerned that the sloppy rhetoric and hyperbole that passes as "political discourse" only worsens with further use. It's bad now. Given another two or three generations, it'll likely become predominantly entrenched, and productive discourse will have become largely impossible. You're contributing to it by overstating the level of which you find the ideas unpalatable. Your mis-use of "vile" reduces the value of the word, itself, as you so easily slap it on ideas or vegetables you don't care for, such that an actually vile thing ends up lacking a word to adequately describe the relative value of unpalatable-ness. I'd call such use "vile", but it isn't; it's just stupid, lazy, and sloppy. And then I'd have to explain to overly-earnest blog warriors the difference between sarcastic mis-use and regular mis-use.

But you're not going to read anything I just wrote, because it requires thought. You're just going to make some invective remark, or try to turn the conversation subject to me, or rather whatever you imagine me to believe, because that's what you've been doing the last couple of years. As such, I've already stated my position, which is that I hope that doesn't manage to get passed on to your offspring.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
I don't care by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #63 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 03:45:08 PM EST
And I somehow suspect that "agrees with MNS's views on language" is not a life skill that would serve my child well.

Clearly I inadvertently stumbled into some psychological baggage.  For that, I am sorry.  I still believe that the Boy Scouts' position on religion and homosexuality is "vile" in a not at all understated and fully dictionary (def 2) cognizant way.

I do realize that, thinking only of yourself, and thus being unable to conceive of alternate views, how encountering a contrary opinion might upset you.  I advise you to do what I do: stop giving a shit about other people's words.

I will now cease dealing with your vile(1) posts and your vile(10) opinions and return to my vile (8) job.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Ad hominem, as I expected. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #64 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:38:51 PM EST

Amateur, sure, but expected.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Just giving tit for tat. by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #66 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:57:49 PM EST
Nice to see you've calmed down from three paragraph rant phase.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
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Whatever, bro. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #67 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 06:03:22 PM EST

Three paragraphs of written text is an indicator of calmness to you? The hyperbole just won't quit.

Let me know when you've handled live fire exercises without shitting yourself. Then I'll know you finally understand what "calm" is.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Bad news by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #68 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 06:16:22 PM EST
"Call of Duty: Modern Warfare" does not count as "Live Fire".
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You're hilarious. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #69 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 06:53:27 PM EST

We don't have the same definition of that word either.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Well by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #70 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 08:15:47 PM EST
I do find the idea that being intentionally missed by bullets is scary enough to make one crap ones pants quite amusing.
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Right. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #71 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 08:50:45 PM EST

I'll just pretend that made sense in English. Blog on, blogger.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Yes by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #72 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:11:36 PM EST
I am sure people who have actually been shot at by people trying to kill them would agree that being in a "live fire exercise" is as terrifying.  I am sure your Iraq veteran buddies are very impressed by the time you crawled through the dirt while people shot somewhere you weren't.  I am sure it matches their tales of road-side IEDs.

One suspects you bring it up because you've experienced the one but not the other.  I can't think of any other reason one would bring up such a non sequitor.

But anyway, congratulations on making it through your military play acting without crapping yourself.  I'm not sure why you think that has anything to do with ill-considered irate postings on the Internet, but I'll take your word for it.

But write me off as a "blogger" if you want...but far as I can tell, I do nothing other than what you do on this Intraweb thing, so it seems like there's some pot/kettle action there.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
I see what your problem is, and it is ubiquitous by MohammedNiyalSayeed (1.00 / 1) #73 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:24:14 AM EST

You seem to have a bad tendency to synthesize facts when you don't have them. I guess that's what bloggers do. For instance, you have absolutely no grasp of my own experience, yet you went ahead and made something up. You have no idea what my current status is, and, again, you went ahead and made it up. Now that I think of it, you do this whenever you attempt to "argue", as well.

I'm writing you off as a human being.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Hmm. by lm (4.00 / 1) #74 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 06:18:24 AM EST
We have a blogger whose public persona is misanthropic and has such disdain for his own life he can barely be bothered to eat writing off someone else as a human being.

I'm not sure that effort is going to have the intended effect.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
What you are unclear on by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #75 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:38:43 AM EST
Is the intended effect.
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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Was it amusement? by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #76 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:38:06 AM EST
Because if not, you failed.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
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No, what I did was leave out a key word by lm (4.00 / 1) #80 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 06:03:29 PM EST
`publicly'

I have little doubt that the privately intended effect was achieved.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Ahh. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #81 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 06:36:34 PM EST
There was no public intent.
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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
That is an interesting point of view by lm (2.00 / 0) #82 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:25:48 PM EST
I seem to recall someone arguing a point of view that pointedly excluded the possibility of posting to the Internet for personal amusement rather than any possible public intent.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Wow. by aphrael (4.00 / 1) #46 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:50:17 PM EST
The bar is set low. I cannot be held to any higher standard without the holder finding disappointment.

Translation: other people suck, so it's ok that I do.

If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
Your sarcasm meter is broken by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #47 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:58:55 PM EST
Oh, that's right, you don't have one. Autism. You can has it.
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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
Scouting in the UK seems to operate DADT by Herring (2.00 / 0) #10 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:04:55 PM EST
Although they do a bit more God than I'm totally comfortable with, the boy enjoys it and there are worse creeds than theirs.

christ, we're all old now - StackyMcRacky
[ Parent ]
The US might be like that by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #11 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:08:09 PM EST
my time as a Cub Scout was so long ago, there were no atheists or agnostics.



[ Parent ]
You're 500 years old? by Herring (2.00 / 0) #12 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:12:18 PM EST
Oh wait - you're in America. Silly me.

christ, we're all old now - StackyMcRacky
[ Parent ]
Puritans! DO NOT WANT by georgeha (4.00 / 2) #13 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:15:28 PM EST
Is there an organization devoted to resettling the Puritans kicked out England 300+ years ago, back to the UK? I'd contribute a few bucks.


[ Parent ]
Toxic waste disposal by Herring (4.00 / 2) #14 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:17:22 PM EST
The Dutch did it as well - they sent all their evil bigots to South Africa. They did a better cleansing job than UKia though.

christ, we're all old now - StackyMcRacky
[ Parent ]
My experience .... by lb008d (4.00 / 2) #2 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:25:25 PM EST
thankfully did not include any religion whatsoever. It depends a lot on who is running the den or troop. The organization is pretty despicable, however.

Because, you know by sasquatchan (2.57 / 7) #4 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:31:12 PM EST
the best way to show your kids lovingkindness is to tell him his new best friend is an evil bad person for hating $SOME_GROUP.

Er... by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #6 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:40:14 PM EST
When did I say I was doing that?

What I said was that I didn't particularly want my kid getting involved in an organization that hates a group of which I am a member...
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Dude by Gedvondur (3.50 / 6) #16 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:34:53 PM EST
Read the post, I don't think that he was going that route.  He just doesn't want his son to be part of the Boy Scouts because he has a moral objection to the organization's policies.

Jesus, you took that in a stupid direction.



Gedvondur




"...I almost puked like a pregnant StackyMcRacky." --MillMan
[ Parent ]
so what, exactly was to by sasquatchan (3.20 / 5) #19 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:53:41 PM EST
be nipped in the bud ?

1) no you can't be friends with that kid (w/ no explanation)
or
2) that kid belongs to a bad group, so while you can be friends with the kid that belongs to a bad group, you cannot join the bad group. Additionally his mommy is a very bad person because she's (gasp) the den mother.

[ Parent ]
You know... by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #21 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:07:38 PM EST
I was going to explain about how I never said (or think) that anyone is a "bad person", nor is there any intent to actively disallow anything but...

We're talking about a group that actively discriminates against me, and against people I care for so...

Fuck off.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Jesus in a punch bowl by Gedvondur (4.00 / 2) #23 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:21:18 PM EST
He can tell his son he can't be part of the Scouts without disparaging anyone.  This isn't rocket science. 

Every kid gets told he can't do something or participate in something because the parents disapprove and they all manage to do it without slandering others.  I don't see why this is any different.

Kids even get told they can't be friends with other kids because those kids are a bad influence.  Happens all the time.  Hell, its a parents job to monitor the groups and associations that a child is a part of.  What is your plan, just let the kid do whatever the fuck he wants?  The kid is like FIVE.

You're just fucking trolling with idiot "Pick 1, 2, or 3" options.  Stop it.  Its offensive and pointless.


Gedvondur









"...I almost puked like a pregnant StackyMcRacky." --MillMan
[ Parent ]
Point of fact by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #26 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:33:56 PM EST
...we have no issues with the particular kid he is newly friends with.  None.  Nada.

...ok well during the first "play date" my wife was a bit annoyed that the woman was too protective to leave so my wife had to engage in small talk rather than doing the work she needed to, but that's neither here nor there.

We almost certain won't disallow anything...though any parent can certainly encourage and discourage things, especially things that require a big time commitment on the part of the parents.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
How's that straw man treating you? by Captain Tenille (4.00 / 3) #28 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:46:52 PM EST



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/* You are not expected to understand this. */


[ Parent ]
Eight bites in at 16:47 PST. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #41 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:44:05 PM EST

I'd say that it was treating him pretty well. How's that ironic sense of self-satisfaction treating you?


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]
this is a touchy problem, i think, for all parents by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #31 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:17:13 PM EST
How do you explain to your children what you find objectionable about [x] without implicitly condeming as a bad person everyone who believes [x] or acts in [x] way?
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]
See previous discussion regarding vegetarianism by gpig (4.00 / 1) #38 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:03:22 PM EST
To summarise, it's actually pretty easy unless one of the people concerned decides to be an arse about it.
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(,   ,') -- eep
[ Parent ]
My sister by dark nowhere (4.00 / 1) #9 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 01:55:38 PM EST
is doing an awesome job of keeping he little one out of the way of uh... premature religious indoctrination. This is tough when both sides of our family are obsessively religious in their own ways.

Chill out, snowflake.

UK Scouts by gpig (4.00 / 2) #18 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 02:52:41 PM EST
Non-Christians, including atheists, and those who happen not to be heterosexual are allowed to join the Scouts in the UK these days.

Sounds like the Boy Scouts of America need to get new orders from the mothership ....

Incidentally, I was in Scouts or equivalent all the way from the age of six (all of this before the enlightenments linked above) and found it immensely positive, despite the pervasive religious influence. I just didn't say "to God" when I was repeating the Scout Promise. (I have no problem with our system of government).

Then again, I was thoroughly innoculated against religion as I was dragged to church every Sunday until the age of 12 — kids without such protection might fare differently.

The best thing Scouting taught me was teamwork. Camping in a group teaches you that if you just shut up and get on with stuff (rather than arguing over whose turn it is or complaining about how much you have to do) it all gets done quicker and you can have a cup of tea. Also, it was incredibly good fun, and taught me a lot of practical things, lighting fires, building bridges, looking at knots and saying, "nah, that won't hold weight".

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(,   ,') -- eep

The mothership suffered an LDS mutiny by BadDoggie (4.00 / 5) #29 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:04:31 PM EST
The Mormons took over the organisation years ago and effectively run it as an arm of their cult. Hell, they're proud to admit it. It is the LDS' "official boys' youth group" and BYU now actually offers a major in "Scouting".

woof.

OMG WE'RE FUCKED! -- duxup ?

[ Parent ]
Not exactly by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #59 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 12:50:25 PM EST
There's Mormon Scouting, sure, but there're also Anglican, Orthodox (I think), Methodist, and Unitarian Scouting groups.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
The badges might be still around by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #65 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 05:05:08 PM EST
But last I heard, the Mormons defeated/infiltrated the "coffee muggers"* and took over the BSA.

Wumpus

* Back in the 80's the BSA was controlled by a group of men who enjoyed playing boy scout. They could be easily identified by wearing a coffee mug on there belt and a spoon on the other side to stir it. However: the "mugger" part of the name does not refer to the coffee mug. It refers to the ability of the mugger to jump in front of hungry scouts and take their food.

[ Parent ]
You're in the SF Bay Area, right? by chuckles (1.00 / 10) #27 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 03:45:49 PM EST
There must be a NAMBLA Scouts chapter near you. They're very "open-minded".

"The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin [...] would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities"
Funny thing that by MartiniPhilosopher (4.00 / 3) #30 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:11:36 PM EST
Without being a member of the Scouts for years, I wouldn't have figured out my non-theist position as soon as I did. And despite the troop being part of a church, it wasn't ever awkward and I would say actually contributed positively in my explorations of that part of life.

Whenever I hear one of those aforementioned douche bags pontificate about how dangerous [...] videogames are I get a little stabby. --Wil Wheaton.

Scounts by duxup (4.00 / 2) #32 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:20:26 PM EST
When I was in the scouts other than the mantra that included the word God there wasn't a word said about God, atheists, agnostics, or gays.  Somehow I survived unharmed.
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As a former Canadian Scout by Phil the Canuck (4.00 / 2) #34 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:28:11 PM EST
One who was awarded the highest awards possible in the given levels,  I wouldn't want my kid in the Mormon Scouts of America. 

[ Parent ]
I didn't notice any moromon stuff by duxup (2.00 / 0) #42 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:59:17 PM EST
n/t

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[ Parent ]
I don't think it reaches the kids directly by Phil the Canuck (2.00 / 0) #55 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 06:11:28 AM EST
But it certainly guides the actions of the national leaders.  Besides, most American scouts I met would have died on some of our camping trips.  Maybe I just met the dumb ones. 

[ Parent ]
I doubt it by duxup (2.00 / 0) #60 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 03:04:51 PM EST
I don't think the scouts instill much other than the obvious from what I've seen. Not many spontaneous Mormon activities occurring due to scouting.

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[ Parent ]
Please kind sir by johnny (2.00 / 0) #36 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:32:41 PM EST
I am learning English. I reside in Mali. What is meaning of word FoML?

God Bless You!

She has effectively checked out. She's an un-person of her own making. So it falls to me.--ad hoc (in the hole)

fruit of the loom by sasquatchan (4.00 / 1) #43 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 08:22:01 PM EST
err, rather of his loins..

[ Parent ]
it's a good to have concern for your child by garlic (4.00 / 3) #37 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 05:46:03 PM EST
but it seems premature to posit what if he joins, and then what if he wants to stay in forever, and then what if the local troop finds out I'm atheist and object to it.

I was in cubscouts in a religious grade school, and religion didn't play a role in it at all.


As an Atheist who isn't homophobic by theboz (4.00 / 7) #39 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 06:23:23 PM EST
I would let my son join if he wanted to.  Life sucks, and he won't learn how to properly deal with people that don't share or respect the beliefs of his family without exposure to it.  I also second those that had positive experiences with the scouts.  The right troop would not do things that you object to.  Besides, it's not like the military, once your son joins up, if it doesn't go well he can quit and no harm is done.  In the meantime, he may learn some science, history, enjoy the outdoors, and learn teamwork with kids his age in a more positive environment than school.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
But... by Phil the Canuck (4.00 / 1) #56 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 06:14:07 AM EST
I don't see how a kid will learn to deal properly with people of differing views by joining an org that doesn't.

[ Parent ]
Because, as clock and others have said, by houser2112 (2.00 / 0) #57 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 06:35:55 AM EST
it's all about the particular troop involved.  Other than the Oath ("...for God and my country...") and the Law (..."reverent"...), there need not be any mention of religion.  The religious awards are entirely optional and rather obscure.  Perhaps I was lucky because my troop was always attached to a school and not a church.  The only time the school was directly involved in our activities was when someone drew genitalia on a library chalkboard.  It's all about the particular people in the troop.  You don't have to participate in any jamborees or "dorky" events if you don't want to.

At least this is how things were when I was a Boy Scout, 16 years ago.  I hope things haven't changed significantly.  It was a good experience for me socially, and I picked up some good skills.

[ Parent ]
that's the best kind by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #58 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 07:09:13 AM EST
It shows how people get stuck in about things that really don't matter.


[ Parent ]
Basically... by theboz (4.00 / 1) #77 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:45:25 AM EST
You learn how they think, and you learn rather than to fear or hate them, that they are just like you and likely good people, but a bit misguided or with a different opinion on things.  I seriously doubt the Boy Scouts have become some sort of goose steppers for Christ organization.  In either case, it's easy to investigate the troop and find out, and if they are bad, simply leave them.  I don't see the harm in this.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]
this is a tough one for me by clock (4.00 / 3) #48 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 09:16:13 PM EST
and i'm not looking forward to it.  i'm an eagle scout and got to the top of the ladder of their super sekret sect and all that jazz.  most of my surviving friends were met in scouting.  including the gay one who outed himself in the process of exposing something truly evil.  he's the reason i doubt that i will be comfortable with the boy pursuing it and he's also the one pushing hardest for me to chill the fuck out about it. 

the experience is really all on the troop level.  the overall org doesn't play into it except at national events that no one really wants to be dorky enough to attend.  issues of religion were never discussed in my troop and neither was any kind of sexuality.  most of it was playing with fire and knives.  and kick ass camping.

i dunno.  i'm still conflicted.  my troop and the people associated with it gave me a lot and it feels weird to say that i don't want my own son involved.  if they weren't such fuck ups maybe one bit of parenting could be easier.

but i absolutely understand where you're coming from.


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

You should be a scoutmaster by theboz (4.00 / 2) #78 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:49:28 AM EST
Seriously, I think you'd be great in that role.  Granted, you may not want to be in a troop where the other scoutmasters are idiots, but if you find the right troop I think it would be ok, plus you'd be able to make sure your son is not out camping with a bunch of assholes.

Granted, you and I have a ways to go before our sons can join any scouting organization, but I personally am not ready to write it off until I hypothetically participate in whichever hypothetical troop my son hypothetically shows an interest in.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n

[ Parent ]
thanks. by clock (2.00 / 0) #79 Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:26:10 PM EST
i did volunteer as an assistant for quite a while in college.  it's really the only way i could get excited about the dude being involved.  and if things turn out as they might, i would take on that role.

but we have some time before that happens!


I agree with clock entirely --Kellnerin

[ Parent ]
nip what? by dev trash (4.00 / 1) #50 Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 09:28:23 PM EST
As a great Zen artist once said.  Once you realize you have no control, you get it.


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Click
YMMV by lm (2.00 / 0) #54 Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 04:36:52 AM EST
I lasted in Boy Scouts for about a month. I quit after going on my first campout which consisted mostly of the younger kids listening to stories about sex and killing from the troup leaders days in Vietnam while the older kids snuck off into the woods to get stoned with the junior troop leader. In between, the older kids would practice professional wrestling moves on the younger kids.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
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