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By squigs (Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 07:49:15 AM EST) (all tags)
So, we have about 10 parties standing in the South East.  I can find the positive points from their websites.  What's their dirty laundry?

So, parties in the South East...



Conservatives: Right wing nutters.  Very populist.
Labour: Right wing nutters.  Very populist.
Lib Dems: Central party.  Slightly populist but lack of any realistic chance has made their policies a little less crowd pleasing.
Socialist Labour: Left wing nutters
BNP: Racist, homophobic, idiots.
UKIP: Racist but smart enough to be a little more subtle about it.
English Democrats: They want an English parliament, English identity (which is a bit of a vague term) and an end to Political correctness (which is another vague term). 
Christian Party: Religious fanatics who really should keep their beaks out of my life. 
No2EU: A Eurosceptic party but less racist, slightly more pragmatic and more left wing. 
Libertas: A pro-reform party.
Socialist Labour Party: A bunch of people who support the traditional labour views.  And the worst website EVAR!
The Green Party: Heavily focussed on visible green issues rather than the important ones
The Peace Party: Bunch of do-gooding hippies.  I actually like these guys but think their views are impractical. 
Jury Team: I have no idea who these guys are.
United Kingdom First party: No idea about these
The Roman Party, Ave: Some French bloke in Reading thinks it would be fun to be an MEP. 

So that leaves the Jury Team, Libertas, Roman, and possibly No2EU and Lib Dem as contenders for my vote.

I'm a little worried that I don't know that much about these.  Anyone got any dirt?

< Once and future stuff | Attn Breaker infidel >
Eulections | 39 comments (39 topical, 0 hidden)
Libertas by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #1 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 08:14:31 AM EST
Nice words, don't like the tactics in Ireland much. If you could believe they're really about transparency and accountability (which the EU certainly lacks), they could be worth voting for. However, I would not risk my vote on them.

It is mostly the brainchild of one Declan Ganley, rich UK/Irish businessman who has made his money variously with US defense contracting, and some investments in Eastern Europe and personally invested a lot in the group to outspend nearly everyone in the no-to-Lisbon campaign. He doesn't seem to be keen on a lot of EU regulation in business, but was slow to divulge his own spending in the referendum campaign.

In Ireland, the Libertas party has been flirting with anti-immigrant sentiment and Ganley himself has appeared on a 'them nasty yerpeens won't get their compulsory abortions in here' platform.


Thanks by squigs (2.00 / 0) #2 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 08:59:16 AM EST
This is exactly the sort of thing I worry about.  I approve of their points about reform, but I find myself a little suspicious of their real motives. 

[ Parent ]
(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 1) #6 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:34:11 AM EST

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You ascribe malice by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:41:13 AM EST
Where I see predominantly ignorance.


[ Parent ]
This road 74% funded by the European Union [nt] by darkbrown (2.00 / 0) #8 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:53:53 AM EST


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Naw by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #10 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:56:01 AM EST
The sinking bit was the ignorant being prey for the malicious.
The rest is just simple human ingratitude that happens all the time.


[ Parent ]
Greens by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #3 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 09:15:29 AM EST
Can you expand a bit?

My problem with them is their stance on alternative medicine (pro) - which is tempting me to join so I can argue it out, funnily enough. I don't think it'll be a stance that remains if they become more mainstream, but you never know.

They're also anti vivisection, which is possibly worrying but I don't feel I know enough about it to have a proper opinion.

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It's political correctness gone mad!

Odds and ends. by squigs (4.00 / 1) #4 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 09:57:35 AM EST
Massive investment in renewable energy.  That's good but it's not something that can easily guarantee a consistent supply of power.  You'll need some backup capacity.  They have no policy over this.  Now, tidal is highly predictable and if you use wind power for the rest of our energy you'll be okay most of the time but there are times when there's simply not enough wind for the country so we need some storage or backup. 

Encouraging organic food production sounds nice and friendly but it does require more space.  Similarly, GM foods are not necessarily a bad thing but people are far too panicked about them.

And then there was something about cutting MEP travel.  Well, okay, not a bad idea but as far as a cause of global warming goes it's fairly trivial. 

Investing in public transport is great.  As is investment on greener housing. 

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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #5 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:31:32 AM EST

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I would have thought by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 07:11:30 PM EST
It'd be nigh-on impossible to be green and support the Common Agricultural Policy. It fucking sucks.

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It's political correctness gone mad!

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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #32 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 06:31:36 AM EST

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[ Parent ]
Yeah, I don't know all the details by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #33 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 06:44:17 AM EST
One of the main things it does (as I'm sure you know) is pay out subsidies to keep land farmed that doesn't have to be. This is wrong in so many ways. We're paying to needlessly spray chemicals over half the countryside.

The US is just as guilty, you're right. I've brought it up in a few arguments elsewhere about the General Motors bail-out.

The food air miles thing is actually a bit misunderstood. European farms use much more fuel, pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers etc than developing world farms and have a much bigger carbon footprint (hate that phrase, but it'll do). They might not be flying the food around the world, but they are shipping all the stuff they use to grow it around the world. Wish I had the stats handy... (There's limits of course, stuff flown in from Brazil comes off badly).

So couple that with keeping the developing world in poverty and you have a lose-lose situation.

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It's political correctness gone mad!

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(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 1) #34 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 06:54:17 AM EST

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[ Parent ]
Two books for you by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #36 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 08:09:40 AM EST
"Bottom Billion" by Collier
"The Plan" by Carswell / Hannan.


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #38 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 08:55:29 AM EST

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That's pretty much my position by Herring (4.00 / 3) #9 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:55:47 AM EST
The anti-vivisection bit must've got in there to appease the crustier elements. Anyone who had thought about it would realise that if you ban vivisection in Europe, all the pharma corps will just bugger off to somewhere with no welfare rules. Besides, France and Spain have a long and proud history of animal cruelty.

You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

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(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 3) #11 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 12:05:05 PM EST

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They enjoy it by Herring (4.00 / 3) #12 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 12:08:25 PM EST
Besides, that's nothing on force-feeding geese or throwing donkeys off towers.

It also occurs to me that hunting with hounds was very much a noblemans' sport. And as we know, the aristocracy were originally the Normans - so in other words: French.

You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 12:24:56 PM EST

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I would read the TPA poll results by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #14 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 12:49:09 PM EST
Which can be found here.

We need out of the EU and back into the EEC IMHO.


(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #15 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 12:58:01 PM EST

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It tells us by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #17 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 04:02:22 PM EST
You haven't read or understood it completely.

Look at the disparity on a number of questions between the elected and the voters.

Is that Democracy?  That the belief system of the voters and that of the incumbent representatives are hugely different?  Why is that?

Boris getting voted in was the will of the people enacted.  I'm reserving judgement on him so far, but as yet he hasn't cut anything I depend on, hasn't pissed my money up the wall on blue sky social engineering projects.

Give him time, but I'd put a wet blanket on him if he was burning to death, as opposed to Uncle Ken who I'd not piss upon if he was on fire.


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #18 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 04:21:29 PM EST

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EU: Oh we do understand how it works by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 05:34:53 PM EST
And we didn't agree to any of it.  All of the media hyperbole (and I agree it is that) is because we had a referendum on joining the EEC

Not the EU.

We've handed over many sovereign powers since with no referendum, or mandate given to any governing body to donate our Parliamentary rights up to the EU, aside from the Lisbon con/treaty, which GTLSB signed behind closed doors.

Against the manifesto published by his party, and upheld by a court decision that a manifesto promise was not legally binding.

Your argument against Boris so far contains no facts, or opinions other than "I didn't vote for him".

Would you like to build an argument against him, or just leave it as "he's a floppy haired TORY BASTARD therefore he is AGAINST MY COMMUNIST PRINCIPLES"?


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 05:45:46 PM EST

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Yes, yes they did. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #27 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 05:09:43 AM EST
Which is why they'll receive a savage kicking in the next GE.

Who says that having more powers shifting from Westminster to Bruxelles is bad for the people in the UK?
Because the system by which the EU runs on is fundamentally undemocratic.  Candidate lists chosen by a party, not the populace?

Boris - you're arguing in the previous point that  my elected representatives are not my choice but I should suck it up, but as Boris isn't your representative the system's against you.  You can't have it both ways, chief.


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 1) #30 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 06:16:23 AM EST

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There is clearly no arguing with you, comrade. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #31 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 06:19:13 AM EST
Off to the gulag with you.


[ Parent ]
You think? by Merekat (4.00 / 2) #25 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 04:57:10 AM EST
I think the media hyperbole is because it sells papers but hey. Average Fred in the shop just has a basic objection to anyone he doesn't personally know telling him what to do. The fact that you can stick a nice label on it an call it Brussels, and find evidence to support a pre-existing (perfectly human) gut feeling makes it easier for the journalists. On the other hand, you point out something perfectly valid - you have no way of holding even your own govt. accountable for their election promises. You're stuck with the hope that your preferred party will also stick to theirs. How is that the fault of the EU? Or am I confused with how you're linking the two?

Help me understand the UK perspective a bit more please. When an EU directive is enacted, it is down to the individual countries to implement it locally. Why is it that in the UK you end up with compulsory training in using a ladder, complete with certificate, and in Belgium they don't? Why do you end up with some of the strictest Data Retention policies?

One of the things to worry about in the UK when you have real, valid concerns about the EU is who you are keeping company with. In particular, I have some trouble understanding the 'political correctness gone mad' type of rhetoric. What is political correctness gone mad? Those pesky equal rights for women that the Irish govt had to be forced into by the EC? Data protection legislation for individuals? Or the abovementioned ladder example? And who is actually responsible for that?

Fundamentally, I'm not convinced you have fully defined the problem.


[ Parent ]
Tsk I expected better from you, merekat. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #29 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 05:38:28 AM EST
And how is the Labour / Conservative / LibDem party in Parliament different to Lab/Con/LD in Europe?

They are not.  Everything comes from party HQ.  And that is a big problem.

In the UK, I have the feeling that our belssed government is using the EU as an excuse to push their authoritarian agenda - sign up to an EU directive, gold plate it and ram it down into the UK statute book.  Then let the media blow itself into a frenzy about "bloody Brussells telling us how to live".

That problem will be solved next general election, I think.

Labour have hacked our governmental and legal system - look at how they have turned from full debate in the HoC followed by an unwhipped vote into guillotined debate followed by Statutory Instrument implemented by hand picked select committees.

The safeguard on the UK's legal system was to have "Right honourable" members elected.  At present all members of the HoC are neither right nor honourable.

PC gone mad - kick a man to death and get 10 years in chokey.  Kick a man to death whilst calling him a gay or a racial epithet you get 20 years.  That is PC gone mad; the correct answer is if kick a man to death - you get a life sentence with no parole.

Fundamentally, I have not fully defined the problem because I don't have all day to write out what's wrong.  And unless I'm mistaken, this diary is about the EU elections!


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Doh't expect better from me by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #35 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 07:00:14 AM EST
You'll always be disappointed.


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Don't think that would work by squigs (2.00 / 0) #24 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 04:20:29 AM EST
Not unless we could abolish the EU entirely, but the rest of Europe seems to like it.  And there are aspects I quite like - e.g. that I'm allowed to live anywhere in Europe if I want to, for example. 

So it seems that the best compromise is to fix the flaws in the system.  I can live with a United Europe that's actually democratic and keeps its budget in check. 

[ Parent ]
It doesn't have to be like that. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #28 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 05:12:15 AM EST
The EEC has many benefits; free movement of labour and goods, common manufacturing standards and so on.

The EU is a politician's wank fantasy.

I believe Switzerland and Norway, among others, have seperate treaties with the EU that give them a more EEC approach - ie all the good bits that the average person on the street can see as giving tangible benefit.

That's where I'd like to return to.


[ Parent ]
There are a couple of automatic by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #16 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 02:40:07 PM EST
Vote deciders.
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
WHAT IS THIS TRAVESTY? by brokkr (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 06:15:00 PM EST
Does the Monster Raving Loony Party not stand for the European elections?
--
Deyr fé, deyja frændr, deyr sjalfr it sama,
ek veit einn, at aldrei deyr: dómr um dau∂an hvern.

(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #23 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 04:11:45 AM EST

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[ Parent ]
Z too, apparently. by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #26 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 05:06:32 AM EST
NT


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #37 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 08:31:54 AM EST

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I hope you have taken their names by Herring (2.00 / 0) #39 Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 09:32:21 AM EST
And reported them to the appropriate authorities.

Dissent is terrorism.


You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

[ Parent ]
Eulections | 39 comments (39 topical, 0 hidden)