Print Story Is today the day that democracy dies in the EU?
Diary
By Breaker (Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 12:17:45 PM EST) (all tags)
Ireland vote on the Lisbon ConTreaty today.

Whilst we in Englandland were denied a referendum by Gordon "Texture Like Debt" Brown (who signed it behind closed doors despite a Labour party manifesto promise to ask the people), those lucky folks of the Emerald Isle get their second chance to have another vote because the EU didn't like the referendum result last time.



Looks likely that Blair is being lined up as the new el-Presidente.

Who gets to vote who holds the most powerful in the EU?  All member states' populace?

No, just the anointed 27 leaders of member states.

Germany has a one or two parliamentary hurdles to overcome to ratify Lisbon; as do the Czechs and IIRC Poland too.

If any of the above do not ratify, then if Call Me Dave and his lot get in next year then UKia will be granted a referendum.  If not then CMD's fence sitting response to that outcome is "we'll take a look at it then".

Apologies for not filling this out into a more linky Breakermatic special; that work thing has been getting in the way this week.

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Is today the day that democracy dies in the EU? | 53 comments (53 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #1 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 01:23:12 PM EST

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Wrong aact for who? by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #6 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 03:43:40 PM EST
NT


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #8 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:03:12 PM EST

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You are vive la EU by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #10 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:16:45 PM EST
And I claim my £5


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #12 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:27:25 PM EST

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He aims.. He shoots.. He FIRES by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #14 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:57:29 PM EST
AND HITS!


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #16 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 06:56:57 PM EST

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I haven't even met him by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #21 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 06:58:08 AM EST
Sorry!


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 1) #32 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:31:23 AM EST

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Who was that masked man? by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #34 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:34:05 AM EST
Who knows?


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(Comment Deleted) by vive la EU (2.00 / 0) #2 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 02:48:48 PM EST

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When we were lied to by Heath by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #5 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 03:42:52 PM EST
"We'll join the EEC", and that'll be it.

That was the last time the UKians were asked.

Since then, it was then the:
"EC" for a couple of years.  Note which "E" was dropped.

Then the EU.

None of which were subject to proper democratic scrutiny.

If the EUSSR keeps up at this, it will unite Europe.  Just not in the way they had thought.


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recurring referendum by Merekat (4.00 / 2) #3 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 03:08:44 PM EST
Being able to have a referendum on the same issue more than once is not a bad thing. Without that, divorce would still be illegal in Ireland. Just sayin'.


Open to abuse though. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #4 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 03:31:25 PM EST
n year statute between the same referendum repetition?

also:
EU relaxed its own rules on "impartiality in news coverage" on funding for the campaign.  Just sayin'.


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maybe by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #7 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 03:44:44 PM EST
Maybenot. If the one which would have prevented pregnant women from travelling got through, I wouldn't like to wait n years to try to fix it.


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Good point. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #9 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:15:44 PM EST
That's a single issue though.

Go and read the ConTreaty fully, and we'll have a chat about the implications of the no further referendums required if we need to override your Constitution part of Lisbon.


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No point by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #11 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:16:59 PM EST
I have no vote.


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Switzerland Option. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #15 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 05:17:47 PM EST
Made real.


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The Swiss know the score. by dmg (4.00 / 1) #51 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 06:48:43 PM EST
We could learn huge amounts from them if we were not stuck in our left/right football team style politics. 
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
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That's looking likely a Yes from Ireland by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #29 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:01:22 AM EST
So that's 1-1 for and against.

Will the EU now hold a last referendum as the decider?


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Linky. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #13 Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 04:56:47 PM EST
Linky

If you want to refute that, then you'll have to pstlnksyrslfkthxbai.


No it isn't by TheophileEscargot (4.00 / 3) #17 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 03:33:10 AM EST
I've never been a fan of referenda or "direct democracy". Nor do you seem very keen on them generally: you just seem to want to put up an arbitrary hurdle against something you disagree with.

Consider that turnout in the last Irish referendum was 15.5%. This means that in reality, 84.5% of Irish people didn't really care about the treaty, 7.2% were in favour, 8.3% were against. If that 8.3% of Irish people were to actually scupper reform for the whole of the EU, I don't see that as a great victory for democracy, but an example of the problems of a referendum.

Suppose it was a referendum on whether to disband the EU and replace it with a pure free trade zone as you want, and it was all set to go ahead until 8.3% of Irish people said no. I suspect that you wouldn't be saying "The Voice of the People has spoken and we must respect it", you'd be saying "MOAR REFERENDA."
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

(Comment Deleted) by vive la EU (2.00 / 0) #20 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 06:28:54 AM EST

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When did I say I wasn't a fan of referenda? by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #22 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 07:02:17 AM EST
Go on, point out a comment or a diary where I have categorically stated that.

For the record, I am in fact very keen on referenda, but subject to a quorum actually voting.

If the free trade zone was mooted, and England voted yes to it, it wouldn't matter what Ireland voted for as best for Ireland; it wouldn't affect UKia.


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Heh by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #23 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 07:23:40 AM EST
Go on, point out a comment or a diary where I have categorically stated that.
Since you post everything in the Hole or the Whine Cellar, it's impossible to for me to Google for anything you've said, for or against.

How about you point me at some instances where you've wanted referenda for other things than resisting the Evil of Europe? If you're really "very keen" on them there must be a few. Strangely though, in your manifesto the only reference is to the EU constitution.

I suspect that the British views on Europe are similar to Irish: at a guess roughly 85% of people don't really care, 10% are strongly against, 5% are strongly for. One problem with referenda is that with low turnouts they're often unduly influenced by small but angry minorities.
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It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

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Not true by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #26 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 09:56:01 AM EST
Since you called me on that in autumn 2008 all Breakermatic diaries have been in the diary section. 

I believe I explained back then that I was posting in the hole as I was often off on a rant and put it in the hole so as to not upset the regular diarists. 

When you pointed out the hole gets deleted I stopped posting Breakermatic diaries there.

I don't believe I've posted anything beyond "oooh new thing, clicky" into the Whine Cellar.

Your point that I haven't been asking for referendums left right and centre is valid.  I believe they should only be used for matters that affect a country's constitution.

And as well, a referendum should only be valid if 50% of the populace actually votes.


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Well, I did try what I could by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #28 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:00:58 AM EST
On Google and Husi search, and the only references I could find to you talking about referenda was in terms of opposing Europe. I couldn't find a single instance of you favouring referenda for anything else.
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It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
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See second to last para of my previous post by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #30 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:02:54 AM EST
Only the EU is attempting to modify our constitution and sovereign self governing powers.


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So I stand by my original comment by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #33 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:32:23 AM EST
You're just favouring referenda as a way of erecting obstacles to European reform.

Now in other contexts, you complained a lot about how the EU is too inefficient, bureaucratic and somewhat corrupt. It seems to me that the voting reforms of the Lisbon treaty, or its predecessor the European Constitution, are necessary to overcome these problems. At present, it's too easy to block any reform or improvement with a single vote, and the leadership is too weak and rotates too fast to clean things up.

Basically any change that strengthens the EU leadership enough to give them a chance of cleaning up the corruption, is going to have the usual Europhobic suspects doing the usual screaming over the slippery slope to a superstate. But they're not interested in a less-corrupt, more-efficient EU: they want the EU to be as corrupt and inefficient as possible so they can argue for leaving it entirely. But if you do want a better EU, something like the Lisbon treaty needs to happen.
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It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

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If reintroducing the death penalty was tabled by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #36 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:41:02 AM EST
I'd be banging on for a referendum too.

The contreaty also contains some pretty nasty stuff too; human rights may be suspended, but more botheringly it is self modifying.  What you view as a positive I view as a negative.

I don't want a better EU I want a return to the EEC.


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I think you mean 'Yuman Rights' by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #37 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 11:10:29 AM EST
Why the move away from Dailymailspeak for that one?

The treaty allows Yuman Rights to be suspended by the national governments in cases of emergency. But you want things to be under the control of national governments, so that should be a positive for you.

I think the "self-modifying" thing is exaggerated. It seems to come from a "passarelle" which allows policy areas other than defence to be movied from unanimous voting to qualified majority voting. But to exercise that passarelle requires a unanimous vote. So everybody still has a veto on that limited ability to remove vetoes.
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It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

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Anyway, it's a done deal by TheophileEscargot (4.00 / 1) #38 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 11:13:50 AM EST
Now.
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It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
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Only CMD can save us now. by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #39 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 11:35:26 AM EST
Well, looks like UKIP membership is set to soar then.


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 1) #24 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 07:52:03 AM EST

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Breaker's Constant Party by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #25 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 09:42:34 AM EST
Now has a Minister for EU!

Good idea.


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #31 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:30:27 AM EST

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Without criticism by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #35 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 10:35:19 AM EST
How may we improve our conditions?


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Objection yer honour by Vulch (4.00 / 1) #41 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 11:49:25 AM EST
If a substantial number fail your (b) then the subject of the proposed referendum should automatically fail. KISS principle applied to legislation.


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(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 2) #47 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 07:52:12 AM EST

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The treaty is a matter of public record. by dmg (4.00 / 1) #45 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 05:15:46 AM EST
There's nothing preventing people from reading it. The fact is, it is essentially gibberish, and deliberately designed to be appear that way.  All 231 pages of it are here.

It's full of riveting stuff like this:

The agreement referred to in Ar ticle 1 shall ensure that accession of the Union shall not affect the competences of the 

Union or the powers of its institutions. It shall ensure that nothing therein affects the situation of Member States in relation 

to the European Convention, in particular in relation to the Protocols thereto, measures taken by Member States derogating 

from the European Convention in accordance with Ar ticle 15 thereof and reservations to the European Convention made 

by Member States in accordance with Article 57 thereof.


My contention is that the average man in the street will not want to wade through 100s of pages of this crap. On the other hand, if you just told him you are setting up a European Army (with the power to conscript), and that his country is to become a 'region' of an EU superstate, he would be quite capable of telling you where to shove it.


--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #46 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 07:42:48 AM EST

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not so. by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #49 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 01:22:17 PM EST
here in California we recently voted on a very simple law:

"Only marriage between a man and a woman shall be valid or recognized in California."

I voted no, and I was pissed (and hurt) when it passed, but you can't say it's convoluted and hard to understand.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

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(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #50 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 01:31:24 PM EST

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EU Leadership by codemonkey uk (4.00 / 1) #18 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 04:15:08 AM EST
Not that I'd support Blair as King of Europe, but do you really think a population vote would give any result beside "whoever happens to stand in whatever nation has the largest population" (Germany).

--- Thad ---
Almost as Smart As you.
(Comment Deleted) by xth (4.00 / 1) #19 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 05:57:19 AM EST

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So what you're saying is by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #27 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 09:57:48 AM EST
The people of countrys can't be trusted not to vote along nationalistic, tribal lines?

And you'd rather have a President that was not directly accountable to the voting populace?


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Split the difference? by Vulch (4.00 / 1) #40 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 11:46:30 AM EST
If there has to be a single president, make them elected by the Parliament rather than Council of Ministers. Works for many countries and often gets someone who is good at being president instead of someone who is good at being populist and winning elections or is a good little lapdog.


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Not a bad idea. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #42 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 12:13:38 PM EST
Or perhaps each country has an equal vote, so perhaps if Germany voted that they wanted Chirac, one vote would then go to Chirac?


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Thinking about it by Vulch (2.00 / 0) #43 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 12:25:44 PM EST
Isn't one of the changes in Lisbon that decisions have to pass by a majority of countries and by a majority of population? So maybe el presidente has to be elected by both by the CoM and Parliament to get roughly that split? Though I'm wary of hitting the UN Secretary General problem where candidates are effectively vetoed before they get to the General Assembly by the Security Council.


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See also Eurovision. by codemonkey uk (4.00 / 1) #52 Mon Oct 05, 2009 at 07:06:54 AM EST
I rest my case.

--- Thad ---
Almost as Smart As you.
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I can't think of anything constructive to say by dmg (2.67 / 3) #44 Sat Oct 03, 2009 at 08:17:05 PM EST
So I'll just say "FUCK THE EU", and leave it at that. 
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dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
(Comment Deleted) by xth (2.00 / 0) #48 Sun Oct 04, 2009 at 07:54:05 AM EST

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My opinions seem troubling to you. by dmg (2.00 / 0) #53 Mon Oct 05, 2009 at 05:32:34 PM EST
Perhaps you shoiuld ask yourself why that might be? It's only a website after all. 
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
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Is today the day that democracy dies in the EU? | 53 comments (53 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback