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By Clipper Ship (Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:26:28 AM EST) (all tags)
Name a single Superhero movie that comes even close in its genre and beyond to the overall excellence of a movie like The Royal Tanenbaums, Se7en, Apocalypse Now, Borat, or even something like The Evil Dead.


I can't think of one.

Don't superhero movies strike you as mindless pap with no redeeming qualities whatsoever? I can't think of a single one that I've enjoyed, and I seriously have tried to enjoy a few. Spiderman wasn't bad, but at least halfway through the movie you stop and realize: Hey, this is a movie about a full-grown adult male who is fighting another full-grown adult male, both wearing tight-fitting suits to disguise themselves. And they have some very 1960's style superpowers.

I mean, even the idea of superpowers is ridiculous and dumb, but forget that. Let's just deal with the  fact that superhero movies suck hard and they need to go.

If we need a trend in movies, why can't we just stick with continually remaking movies about something that happened about 10 - 15 years ago so that nostalgia stays alive and we don't forget to laugh at ourselves. God, those '70's nostalgia movies were great. We should just keep making those things.

Death to the utter vapid stupidity of superhero movies!

< Hello internet | The Great Depression of 2008 >
I Have A Dare For You All | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Strongly disagree . . . by slozo (2.00 / 0) #1 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:34:33 AM EST
. . . for me, Superman and the X-Men movies rocked, among others.

Are you serious? by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #8 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:08:24 AM EST
These are movies you'd measure against something like Goodfellas?

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[ Parent ]
OK then, TPD take 2 by sasquatchan (2.00 / 0) #9 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:18:36 AM EST
look for fooking mick, kneel before fooking lord Zod before I punch your fooking lights out, you goddamn worthless shit.

[ Parent ]
You're conflating genres . . . by slozo (2.00 / 0) #11 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:39:59 AM EST
. . . Goodfellas is a mobster movie, not a superhero movie. I would measure Superman against, say, The Incredible Hulk (any of them).

[ Parent ]
I think I pretty clearly pointed out by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #14 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:00:23 AM EST
that the point is mixing genres and measuring the quality of the movie versus other movies outside the genre. I can't think of a superhero movie that stands outside of its own crappy genre.

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[ Parent ]
You did not, actually . . . by slozo (4.00 / 1) #18 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:17:49 AM EST
. . . clearly point that out.

"Name a single Superhero movie that comes even close in its genre and beyond to the overall excellence of a movie like The Royal Tanenbaums, Se7en, Apocalypse Now, Borat, or even something like The Evil Dead."

You seem to infer that the movie should excel in its own genre, and additionally be comparable in cinematic value to other great movies in other genres.

In any case, Superman fulfills all requirements. I rest my case!

[ Parent ]
Yeah, it doesn't and because you understood by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #21 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:34:17 AM EST
me, I clearly did.

The schlock of Superman 2 and the Porno-looking badguy are pretty good, though.

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[ Parent ]
Incredibles and Superman 2 by TPD (4.00 / 3) #2 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:49:33 AM EST
now, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD

why sit, when you can sit and swivel with The Ab-SwivellerTM
My dear sir by hulver (4.00 / 2) #4 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:01:44 AM EST
You posted my comment.
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Cheese is not a hat. - clock
[ Parent ]
Incredible, okay, because it's a cartoon and by Clipper Ship (2.66 / 3) #6 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:06:34 AM EST
a parody. Superman 2 for the kitsch appeal.

But, you basically proved my point: these recent bout of films are ridiculous.

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[ Parent ]
Ahem by joh3n (4.00 / 7) #3 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:57:21 AM EST
The year was 1980, the world was in Crisis, and one movie, a superhero movie, saved us all.

Flash Gordon

FLASH (BOOM)  AAAYAAAAAAH

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I just ate about 7 pounds of meat
-theantix

/Loved/ it. by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #12 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:54:52 AM EST
Super-cheesy. Have it on DVD.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
WIPO: Taxi Driver, The Matrix by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #5 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:03:14 AM EST



Witty, but no by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #7 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:07:50 AM EST
and you also know why.

No one wearing a slick suit and Travis what'shisname  only underlines why these recent movies are just so frighteningly stupid. They are all really that guy, except he did it first.

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[ Parent ]
Mystery Men. by blixco (4.00 / 3) #10 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:33:41 AM EST

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"You bring the weasel, I'll bring the whiskey." - kellnerin
There can be only One by anonimouse (4.00 / 2) #13 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:57:31 AM EST
Highlander
A French Scotsman, a Scottish Spaniard (Egyptian?), and yet it works.

Fifth Element
Mila Jovovich, 'nuff said.

Do Jedi count as superheroes? If so then I nominate Star Wars and the Empire Strikes Back.

And, yeah, Flash Gordon


Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
5th Element was good by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #15 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:01:10 AM EST
Not at all in the genre of these recent movies, but a great movie, yes.

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[ Parent ]
The Highlander works best once by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:18:16 AM EST
you realize that the Kruger wanted to die.


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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]
If it were anyone but you... by atreides (2.00 / 0) #23 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:36:29 AM EST
LoL by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #29 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:31:31 AM EST
because the prize was mortality. He didn't want to win, he wanted to have as much fun as possible while goading one of the other immortals into killing him.

Particularly in light of the prize, you can argue that the Kruger did, in fact, kill every other immortal.

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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.

[ Parent ]
Not sure I entirely agree... by atreides (2.00 / 0) #33 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:42:01 AM EST
Did he actually know what the Prize was?  They only knew it was powerful, not the scope of it.  I'm sure if Ramirez knew before hand, he would have told Connor.  And if he didn't, I can't help but think the Kurgan didn't.  He never struck me as all that studious or even contemplative...

He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.

[ Parent ]
There were a couple of points in the movie by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #47 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:30:27 AM EST
it's been an awfully long time since college, but I remember thinking a few times that he was even telling McClod that he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. The most obvious was in the church when he says "better to burn out than to fade away".

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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]
He did say that... by atreides (2.00 / 0) #49 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:07:52 AM EST
...but not to MacLeod.  When MacLeod left the Church and Kurgan was contemplating a way to get to him (through mortals he cared about), he fucks with the priest and then makes a showy announcement, ending it with that.

I always got the impression that he wants what he wants, will not let anyone get in his way and is more than willing to take from other people.  Further, all the passing years, separated from mortal contact (other than cursory stuff), have given him delusions of godhood and his success against other immortals had just amplified that delusion.  But that's not any deeper than someone might get from a single viewing...

P.S. You should know that Highlander is my favorite movie and I'm curious about any new interpretation of anything in it...

He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope.

[ Parent ]
Fifth Element by TurboThy (2.00 / 0) #50 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 01:07:42 PM EST
WFT is superhero about that?
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Sommerhus til salg, første række til Kattegat.
[ Parent ]
It was wittily over the top and by Clipper Ship (2.00 / 0) #55 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 03:01:12 AM EST
Bruce Willis could fit the superhero mold, other than the fact that it wasn't a comic book first. It wasn't, right?

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No, it wasn't by iGrrrl (2.00 / 0) #59 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 02:11:59 PM EST
But the art direction/design was by Moebius (Jean Giraud), who is very famous in comics. The city in 5th Element to me much like the city in his The Incal series. When I first saw it, it made me happy, because I was watching a live action Moebius, er, strip.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

[ Parent ]
So, you're asking for a superhero movie by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #16 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:11:52 AM EST
that's also an excellent movie?

I'll have to assume that's what you mean because half the movies you listed are, in my opinion, vastly overrated.

Except The Evil Dead, of course. Bruce Campbell rockkorz!

In any case, you're basically asking a stupid question. Superheros are about escapism, not great drama, so it shouldn't surprise you that Hancock is sappy and full of plot holes, or that Iron Man is full of implausible motivations and scenery-chewing villains.

Hell, in terms of fulfilling their basic goals, I'd say the recent crop of super hero movies has done a much better job than most other genres. I watched Brannagh's 2006 version of As You Like It last night. Other than learning three amusing ways to tell someone to shut up I found the whole thing difficult, unapproachable, and with a massively deus-ex-machina ending. And that last part is hardly uncommon in Shakespeare's work, is it?


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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.

Yeah, but all sorts of genre films are by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #17 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:17:01 AM EST
able to pass over into something with Quality. Superhero films tend not to be able to, despite their amazing popularity.

Hancock isn't a superhero movie. It's a satire with Superheroes in it. Iron Man is a perfect example of crap made large. X-Men, as well. You name.

I can't think of a single good one.

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[ Parent ]
Then you'll just have to die unfullfilled by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:23:12 AM EST
because Iron Man, in particular, was a dead on port of the comic book to the big screen. Downey nailed Stark's character, Paltrow actually breathed life into a minor character who, in the comic, basically exists to be taken hostage, and Jeff Bridges even managed to do a pretty good job with Stane.

As I said - they nailed the goal of a superhero movie. For two hours, people munch pop-corn, cheered when they were supposed to cheer and laughed when they were supposed to laugh. Compared to bad superhero movies, where they cheer when they should laugh and laugh when they should cheer1, I'd say that's quality.

1 See the previous Hulk movie for an example of this.

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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.

[ Parent ]
Dying unfulfilled is not a problem. by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #24 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:37:45 AM EST
It's a goal.

The issue of superhero movies though. WTF? They made sitcoms good,. Why can no one crack the crap that is superhero movies?

I can only surmise that, due to the utter drivel that are 99.99% of comic books (yes, even the black and white ones about emo characters getting their period during a heroin overdose at high school), they have nothing to draw on.

Maybe they should start raw and do it without the comic book. A Marvel/DC/McFarlane character that hasn't been in a cheezy comic book.

V for Vendetta was good, but that was one of the very few good comic books, too.

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[ Parent ]
Let me add an appendix to that comment by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:35:43 AM EST
Consider this: Name a superhero comic book - in any form - that could be considered Great Literature.

Given the source material, what are you hoping for from the movie versions?


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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.

[ Parent ]
See my above comment. by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #25 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:39:34 AM EST
But, yes, exactly. V for Vendetta was good. Not really a superhero, though. Ghostdog was a good movie. Kind of a superhero, I guess.

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[ Parent ]
Ghostdog was an absolutely great movie by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #30 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:33:22 AM EST
but he was just a crazy kid, not a super hero. But, if you're going to reach out into the almost-super category, what about Unbreakable?

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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]
M. Night Shamalacks needs to go back by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #32 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:41:04 AM EST
to delivering pizzas. Unbreakable was unbearable.

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[ Parent ]
We obviously have very different tastes by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #34 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:42:09 AM EST
because I'd rather have my eyes eaten by ferrets than watch Borat or Tenanbaums but I found Unbreakable quite good.


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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]
Royal Tannenbaums wasn't all that good by spacejack (2.00 / 0) #26 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:06:11 AM EST
Wes Anderson seems to idolize Hal Ashby (and for good reason), but you've got to do more than superficially ape his style-isms.

Lots of superhero movies were more successful and tackled more sophisticated subject matter. Se7en was entertaining, but no more so and not any "deeper" than a good superhero movie.

Superman, Spider-man and Conan were all pretty top-notch in my book. The first Superman in particular is one slick piece of storytelling. It also benefited from having one of Hollywood's finest cinematographers, doing some of his best work ever. Their main problems stem from dated technology, but they still did a great job with what they had at the time.

Royal Tenenbaums was amazingly good. by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #27 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:12:48 AM EST
Probably my favorite movie of all time.

Spiderman, Conan and Superman are about adults dressing up in costumes and fighting other adults with magical powers.

Just can't get around that fact.

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[ Parent ]
Well there's the rub isn't it? by jayhawk88 (4.00 / 1) #28 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:28:39 AM EST
I could probably find a bunch of people that would say the Royal Tenenbaum's was a boring, confusing movie.

You can't compare movies over genres and have it be a fair fight. Some people consider the Stooges to be the highest form of comedy imaginable, others go for Life Aquatic. Some people want their heroes to be wearing tights and throwing around cement trucks, some want them to be troubled mobsters who try to turn the family legit but get pulled into the seedy underworld nonetheless. Personal preference colors any and all aspects of this kind of discussion; there is no formula or quantified measurement that can be applied to different genres that can determine the quality or relative "goodness" of a movie.

[ Parent ]
Are you honestly going to argue that something by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #31 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:40:31 AM EST
like Conan took the same amount of talent to put together as Tanenbaums?

I mean, I like Conan, but I'm not going to pretend it was something amazing.

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[ Parent ]
Not at all by jayhawk88 (4.00 / 1) #48 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:48:08 AM EST
What I'm saying is that there are too many variables when you compare movies across genres.

This sort of thing works if you're talking about "Best Drama" or "Best Comedy" or "Best Superhero Movie" because while there are still differences in taste to account for, there are certain features in films of the same genre that one can look for, and compare against other genre films to measure them against one another. Does the drama give you insight into the lead characters motivations without specifically spelling them out? Does the superhero movie skillfully handle the backstory without weighing down the movie overall? Does the comedy consistently deliver laughs without stooping to cliche?

You can't do this in movies across genres. A superhero movie doesn't need as strong of a script/plot as a drama, because it has action and special effects to help carry the movie along. If you think that makes it an inferior movie, fine, but that's your personal preference, and if you use this as a qualification to say that the drama is quantifiably better than the super hero movie, you're just making a "These are my Top 10 Favorite Movies" List, because someone out there is going to have the exact opposite opinion/preference as you do.

[ Parent ]
Well that says more about you by spacejack (2.00 / 0) #35 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:55:48 AM EST
than the movies or their relative merits. It's like being unable to appreciate Mozart because you "can't stand classical music." Doesn't mean Mozart sucks.

[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure Mozart and Conan by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #36 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:00:54 AM EST
aren't on the same level, however.

There's no accounting for taste, yes, but there's also a reason that Pre-Post Modernist ideas could make a distinction between mindless pap for pap's sake and actual art.

Hey, I'm a zombie movie fan, but zombie movies are aren't Mozart. Even I can see that.

Now, as to why Mozart and all old music has no inherent quality to it, that's a whole other discussion.

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[ Parent ]
Well I think you'd actually have to by spacejack (2.00 / 0) #37 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:08:29 AM EST
make that case then, rather than just asserting that it's true because you say so.

[ Parent ]
I think I have fairly well, actually. by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #38 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:14:18 AM EST
No one has come up with anything they seriously think is quality cinema that stands up to my very few examples and then defended it beyond saying just what you said.

In fact, some have pointed out that I forgot that most superhero movies take some pretty awful 'literature' as the basis for their scripts.

I know it's a mind-boggling assertion that superhero movies are nothing but fluff, but I just wanted to get a quick cross-section of people to throw out some suggestions that may show me I'm wrong. So far, the verdict is pretty clear.

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[ Parent ]
lol by spacejack (2.00 / 0) #39 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:17:27 AM EST
In your own mind.

[ Parent ]
Feel free to point out the objections by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #40 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:20:52 AM EST
that were anything more than 'I like this one movie' and followed up with an explanation of why I was wrong.

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[ Parent ]
Feel free to point out by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #41 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:33:39 AM EST
what makes your examples anything more than a few movies that you happened to like.

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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]
Weak return is weak by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #43 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:38:26 AM EST
And you actually added something here.

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What are you doing, trolling hulver? by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #45 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:28:09 AM EST
You, in your own head, decided you like a couple of movies and that other movies don't live up to their shining example. That's great, but don't mistake your opinions for some sort of objective standard, and don't think you're having a conversation when all you're doing is pushing attitude.


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Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.
[ Parent ]
Oh, I'm sorry. by Clipper Ship (2.00 / 0) #53 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 02:59:04 AM EST
Do we all have to politely disagree or we get banned? That sounds boring. Also, I've done nothing more than anyone else has. Is it still okay if I share my opinion without you folks getting mildly aroused?

What could possibly be offensive about not agreeing with people who clearly don't agree with me on a subject?

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I understand where you're coming from by hulver (2.00 / 0) #56 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 03:20:23 AM EST
I just don't think anything that anybody's said will change your mind.

Take something like "Aliens". An absolute classic of the genre. As an action / horror film I don't think there's a lot to beat it.

Has it got the quality of the acting of something like "goodfellas". Personally I think it has. People seem to put films like goodfellas on some sort of pedestal because they're quality serious films.

I think it's more about the genre than the film itself.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges by comparing films between genres.
--
Cheese is not a hat. - clock

[ Parent ]
Not at all. Aliens is a great example. by Clipper Ship (2.00 / 0) #57 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 03:27:06 AM EST
As is Star Wars, where Star Trek is a lousy series of genre films only appreciated in their genre.

I know that people won't agree, but that's okay. However, acknowledging that certain films have the ability to transcend their genre (because they all have to have one if you even decide that a single one does) and can be great as art.

For instance, Woody Allen's dramas are rarely good beyond the drama genre. A few are great, but most of them are not, outside of their genre. No different than most superhero movies.

I'd say 5th Element was a good stab at a superhero genre film that transcends its borders, but most superhero films are crap. I just wanted a sample of the public to see if they have any to point out, which I've missed. And it worked, too.

How absolutely boring, though, if everyone agreed...

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[ Parent ]
Unbreakable by webwench (4.00 / 3) #42 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:37:35 AM EST
kind of fits the bill.

Getting more attention than you since 1998. Ya ya!

True. It does fit the bill. by Clipper Ship (1.50 / 2) #44 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:39:04 AM EST
A possibly good story that was butchered by a bad director is no fault of its own.

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[ Parent ]
I don't like any of the movies you named by iGrrrl (4.00 / 3) #46 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:29:10 AM EST
Not one of them.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

I'm not surprised by Clipper Ship (2.00 / 0) #52 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 02:57:42 AM EST

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[ Parent ]
I'm not a fan.. by iGrrrl (2.00 / 0) #61 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 03:40:10 PM EST
...of horror or humiliation humor. For the first, I have enough tension in my daily life that I don't need it manufactured for me. For the second, I simply don't find it funny, but rather painful.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

[ Parent ]
How many kids want to grow up and be a Tanenbaum? by lm (2.00 / 0) #51 Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 04:03:14 PM EST
'nuff said

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
Apparently the kid who lived across the street by Clipper Ship (2.00 / 0) #54 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 03:00:16 AM EST
He Always Wanted To Be  Tannenbaum

IRL, however, kids are basically uneducated, so a number of them also want to be zamboni's or tractors when they grow up.

Enough has been said, here, as well.

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[ Parent ]
definitions by garlic (2.00 / 0) #58 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 12:35:53 PM EST
Raiders of the Lost Ark? It's rank 16 on IMDB (with the same score as Goodfellas). But, Indiana Jones doesn't have any particular 'super' power.

The Matrix is 31 (right above Se7en), and Neo has some sort of superpower.

Sin City is number 76. No superheros per se, but it is based off of a comic book.

V for Vendetta (146)-- a Hero in a costume based off a comic, but because there's no supernatural powers, it doesn't count?

Iron man (163) This came out this year, so it will probably sink from this point. Arguably, there are no supernatural powers displayed in this movie either, if we're getting pendantic (and obviously, we are).

So IMDB seems to have 4 in their top 250 It be interesting to compare that to non-superhero action movies and see how it compares. There were at least 2 terminators, 2 Indiana Jones, and 2 Kill Bill's in there.


comic V was enhanced by iGrrrl (2.00 / 0) #60 Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 03:33:26 PM EST
The movie, interestingly, removes the real reason for the revenge and the roses. If they'd shorted the slo-mo egregious knife fight at the end by half, they would have had time to get it in there. V was an experimental subject, and he was enhanced in some way by the research. So V counts, I think, as a superhero movie, even if I liked the book so much better.

"Beautiful wine, talking of scattered everythings"
(and thanks to Scrymarch)

[ Parent ]
I Have A Dare For You All | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback