Print Story ``She looked like the ragged end of nowhere.''
Diary
By lm (Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:26:08 AM EST) (all tags)
 


From the too Someone's Watched Far Too Much Spinal Tap Department: ``It’s not that Americans don’t believe in anything,'' said Michael Lindsay, assistant director of the Center on Race, Religion and Urban Life at Rice University. ``It’s that we believe in everything.''

The philosophy of David Saint Hubbins aside, the latest Pew survey is kind of interesting for a couple of reasons.

Earlier ones have show the surprising (at least to me) number of Christians that don't believe in an afterlife. (Which implies no resurrection and, consequently, no salvation.) This one shows that a significant number of self described atheists and agnostics believe in God, ``70 percent of the unaffiliated said they believed in God, including one of every five people who identified themselves as atheist and more than half of those who identified as agnostic.''

The other interesting thing is the number of religious adherents that don't believe all the doctrines of their professed faith. Which is something I've been arguing in the context of the Reverend Wright brouhaha. I don't think having a wacko for a former pastor (or even current pastor) is going to have much traction in a culture where most people don't expect members of a particular denomination to bit on everything the pastor says hook, line and sinker.

But of course, the example the NY Times used to illustrate this wasn't a great one.

For example, 70 percent of Americans affiliated with a religion or denomination said they agreed that ``many religions can lead to eternal life,'' including majorities among Protestants and Catholics. Among evangelical Christians, 57 percent agreed with the statement, and among Catholics, 79 percent did.
That the members of other faiths can go to heaven is a tenet of Roman Catholicism. The official party line isn't that Christianity is the only true religion, but that it is the only religion that is completely true. On the other hand, it probably is fair to say that the Holy See hasn't done too well at communicating this part of its official position from time to time until after the second Vatican Council.

Courtesy of Arts and Letters Daily, Montesquieu argues that If the Incas had Descartes, they would have kicked Spanish tail six ways from Sunday. I haven't read the essay closely enough yet but it had one point that I thought was sublime. ``Among us, the invention of the cannon gave such a slight advantage to the nation that first made use of it that it still hasn’t been determined who actually was first.'' It isn't a single invention that gave the edge to Europeans in the conquest of the New World, Montesquieu argues, but the process that led to the systematic constant stream of inventions. If the Incas had something like the Cartesian method, their technology being almost at parity with European technology, they would have been able to defend themselves successfully.

Last night, I watched Notorious with Miss E and Xanthippe. Xanthippe's opinion was that is was alright but had too much dialog and intrigue, not enough hot and steamy sex. I thought it was fantastic. I love dialog from old movies.  ``Miss Huberman is first, last, and always not a lady.'' Genius. Sheer genius. I also liked the ambiguity at the end, the viewer doesn't know if the heroine is going to live or die.

Not much else going on.

< on twisting and turning | Now I''ve gone and Done It! >
``She looked like the ragged end of nowhere.'' | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Not believing in their church doctrines by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #1 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:40:49 AM EST
But do they disagree with the doctrine, or not know what the doctrine is?

I sometimes get the impression that one reason religious affiliation is much higher in the US than the rest of the developed world, is that a church acts as a useful social club. If so, some US Christians might be less interested in the precise doctrines of their church.

Not sure how much consistency you can expect from a survey anyway. Lots of people hover around borders... they might think they're an agnostic at Question 1 but have decided they're an atheist at Question 20.



There is certainly some of that by lm (4.00 / 1) #2 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:55:00 AM EST
Quite a few USians simply don't care about religious doctrine. Those that do care sometimes aren't well enough informed to really answer the question.

But I think those two groups are a minority sized piece of the puzzle. The US religious ethic goes along the lines of my mother-in-law. When I pointed out the John Paul II's teachings on the immorality of the Iraq war, her response was that he's getting pretty old and gets confused easily so you can't believe everything he says anymore. That sort of ala carte approach to doctrine and its application is a large part of the American experience.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

/American/ experience? by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #9 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:00:31 PM EST
I don't think it's very different here, or for that matter in Greece among self described believers.

[ Parent ]

that kind of approach by LilFlightTest (2.00 / 0) #27 Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:11:03 AM EST
is what made me realize that I no longer identify as Roman Catholic. To me, it's not right to take the parts of doctrine that I like, and ignore the parts I don't. If I can't/won't take it in its entirety, I don't feel that I can rightfully call myself Catholic. That's not to say I've abandoned religious belief entirely, I just don't claim the title.
---------
if de-virgination results in me being able to birth hammerhead sharks, SIGN ME UP!!! --misslake
[ Parent ]

Church by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #10 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:17:19 PM EST
Does the Unitarian church have much of a presence in the UK? It pretty much is the ultimate "religion as social club".

I'm very curious about what the precise questions were, given how nebulous terms like "agnostic" and "atheist" are.
----
ウセーバラケダ
[ Parent ]

Unitarian church by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #11 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:23:31 PM EST
Fairly small presence in the UK. Here they're more often Christians who think the Trinity doesn't make sense, than the semi-agnostic US variety.
--
Butch and Petey are harsh and unforgiving in their estimation of female beauty.
[ Parent ]

Unitarians by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:57:29 PM EST
I've never actually been to a service, but most of the people I know who go are seem to downplay even the Christian part of it. They are really big on the "Jesus was a great man, like Confucius and Buddha" thing. I don't know if I'd call it strictly agnostic in the "I don't know if God exists" meaning. More of a "All religions have some validity and who knows what is really true?" thing.
----
ウセーバラケダ
[ Parent ]

UK variety by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #15 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:05:59 PM EST
I went to a few services when I was doing some reading about religion (before the economics phase, after the comics phase).

There was a traditional Christianish Unitarian church in Stratford in East London: pretty ordinary but they did do this beautiful thing where everyone sings the Lord's Prayer (King James version) without any accompaniment.

In Hampstead there's a church that's largely been taken over by US ex-pats: they do the US-style non-denominational thing.
--
Butch and Petey are harsh and unforgiving in their estimation of female beauty.
[ Parent ]

re:social club by greyshade (2.00 / 0) #25 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:27:07 PM EST
I was speaking once about alternate ways to meet women. You know, other than at a club/bar or friend-of-a-friend meetings at social gatherings.

I was amazed when 4 out of 5 people there suggested attending church.
 

"The other part of the fun is nibbling on them when they get off work." -vorheesleatherface
[ Parent ]

WashPost by sasquatchan (2.00 / 0) #3 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12:45 AM EST
had a chat with the Pew guys yesterday. A lot of questioners wanted to hammer on "bad methodology" it seems, but the Pew guy did a good job of explaining what they did, and how that led to the conclusions published.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/06/20/DI2008062002010.html?nav=ft_lol

Most detractors there wondered how 92% believe in God and 1 in 5 atheists believe in God, etc. (Wonder if Concord NH questioner is DU, given his huge chip-on-shoulder, anti-religion bent..)

To Mr. Mutt, I would think it's more that many don't know the doctrine to begin with. Outside of a seminary, how many folks do you know of can give a precise doctrinal difference between the various US denominations ? What makes Episcopalians different from Lutherans from Presbyterians from Baptists from Methodists ? Toss in Catholics and you might get some 'mary worshiping heathens' commentary, but very few could answer. (Or give socio-political answers, like rich/well-to-do are Episcopal, etc)

There are plenty of books out there for theology/apologetics (Kreft's a popular author, well written, very accessible and explains many of the why we believe what we believe, from a slightly Catholic perspective, very applicable).

Part of me respects those that cling-strongly to their doctrine, yet I'm one of those mealy-mouthed folks who pick-choose doctrines (so to speak) by focusing on the core, and not worrying about the rest. The core's usually not up for argument to be categorized under the christian label.



One thing to understand about human nature by lm (4.00 / 3) #5 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16:50 AM EST
We're fully capable of holding two contradictory beliefs. The assumption that all (or even most) people have analyzed their own beliefs to weed out any contradictions is a bad one.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

do I rate this by sasquatchan (4.00 / 1) #18 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:08:53 PM EST
a 4 or a 0 ?

;)

[ Parent ]

Montesquieu doesn't consider by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #4 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:13:49 AM EST
Epidemic disease. I've seen estimates of anywhere from 50% to 90% deaths from various diseases (primarily smallpox and measles) the Europeans brought with them. It's fairly well established that the mound building culture of the upper Mississippi basin was wiped out by disease before they actually were contacted by the Europeans.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)



And also VD by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #6 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:31:36 AM EST
That was quite the killer back in the day as well.


[ Parent ]

Notorious is fantastic by spacejack (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
One of the few movies I give a perfect 10/10, and by far my favourite Hitchcock. Great visual storytelling sequences with the wine bottles in the cellar and stealing the key. Bigger-than-life but not quite cartoonish villains with tons of subtle menace to them. And I love all the dialogue between Grant & Bergman throughout the movie.



i was pretty confused by the movie paragraph by 256 (2.00 / 0) #8 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:49:46 PM EST
thinking you were talking about this Notorious.

(as it turns out, it won't be out for some time, but i had never payed attention to the release date)
---
I don't think anyone's ever really died from smoking. --ni


Incas by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #12 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:48:16 PM EST
I don't know about the conquest of the Incas, but I've read a fair bit about the conquest of the Aztecs, and in that case, steel armor, steel blades and horses were more important than guns. The Aztecs had obsidian swords, which while deadly to foes in cloth/leather armor, were useless against steal. They wore cloth armor, which was useless against a steel saber. This tends to get ignored, because all those things existed in Europe for centuries before the conquest, and were well known by all of Asia. They aren't as sexy as gunpowder.

But also important, perhaps even more important, are the cultural differences and the style of warfare. The Spanish were conquest oriented, and were the result of a couple of millenia of European military experience. The Aztecs, on the other hand, were used to a more ritualistic style of warfare. They didn't conquer territory so much as go out, grab a bunch of slaves for ritualistic sacrifice and extort promises for tribute. They didn't really have the concept of destroying enemy forces the way Europeans did.

It's also underappreciated how damn lucky Cortez was. On at least two occasions, he was a hair's breath from having the entire thing destroyed. It is easy to envision an alternate history where Cortez marches in and is never heard from again. There were a number of advantages that he had that had little to do with European advantage. The Aztecs had the misfortune of being saddled with a weak leader and they were at the head of a precarious empire when Cortez showed up. It is often missed that Cortez initially had a lot of Mayan help as they, and other Indian city-states were very interested in throwing of the Aztec yoke and did not realize the danger.

All the Aztecs really needed to kick Spanish tail six ways to Sunday was the will to unite and make an overwhelming attack.

(This is not to ignore the issue of germs, which is a whole 'nother influence. But it is arguable as to whether the issue was the numbers of overall population who died or that the plagues killed off much of the Aztec royal family, leaving an inexperienced fool with little talent for leadership on the throne.)

Again, I don't know as much about the Incas, but I suspect the situation is similar. I suspect that people are so busy looking at global, overall causes that they are ignoring the idea that the conquest might not have been inevitable. (Which is hard to give up, because the idea that the conquest is inevitable feeds Western notions of superiority.)
----
ウセーバラケダ


steel, guns and germs by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #14 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:01:53 PM EST
there might be a book in that.


[ Parent ]

Yeah, read that by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #16 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:12:34 PM EST
It's an awesome book, and everyone should read it. The only trouble is that Diamond has a tendency to ascribe everything to the forces he describes, and to ignore other factors. He does a great job of describing why 600 Spaniards could fight off tens of thousands of Aztecs, but ignores the other factors that prevented the Aztecs from banding together in millions, or from killing the Spanish in their sleep once they were in charge of Tenochtitlan.
----
ウセーバラケダ
[ Parent ]

1491 by ana (4.00 / 1) #17 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:05:51 PM EST
is also an excellent book, more exploratory, trying to get a handle on what society was like in the Americas shortly before first-contact with Europeans.

"And this ... is a piece of Synergy." --Kellnerin
[ Parent ]

Yeah by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #19 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:12:21 PM EST
When I'm in my next history-reading phase, I'll likely pick that up.
----
ウセーバラケダ
[ Parent ]

Want a copy? by cam (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:56:14 PM EST
I have finished with it and wont read it again.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

Sure (nt) by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:14:11 PM EST

----
ウセーバラケダ
[ Parent ]

send where you want it sent to by cam (2.00 / 0) #23 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:38:22 PM EST
via the cam.riley at gmail email account. I am moving places so sending books off to the far reaches of the earth (SF) isnt a big deal.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

I think the answer to that by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #26 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:27:43 PM EST
is to gather enough non-Aztec Mexicans (the guys the Aztecs took prisoner and cut their hearts out) to form a protective shield. I'm sure Diamond mentioned that Mexico wasn't politically united (as mentioned above, there wasn't any point trying).

Wumpus

[ Parent ]

Funny essay. by Beechwood 45789 (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:27:02 PM EST
I like how he makes the claim that more philosophically - "scientifically" - astute Europeans brought to the Americas "destruction, the greatest history has ever known" only to write the phrase: "The sciences are therefore very useful, in that they cure peoples of destructive prejudices."

I think he means to say "the sciences are therefore very useful, in that they better aim peoples destructive prejudices at others."

[ Parent ]

I rather suspect by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #24 Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:08:42 PM EST
That the importance of the canon was reduced somewhat because it's an evolution of the gun. I doubt that the first canons would have had much more power than guns and much less accuracy. Eventually as the engineering improved, things would have got better, but that would explain why the first use of the canon's not recorded.



``She looked like the ragged end of nowhere.'' | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback