Print Story Is British Binge Drinking really that bad?
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By nlscb (Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:58:37 AM EST) (all tags)
I keep reading stories on the BBC about how UKia is suffering an epidemic of binge drinking for about at least 10 years now.  Is it really that bad?  Is drunkeness and street crime really that out of control in UKia?  When I read the details, an occasional brawl or someone throwing up, it seems quaint by American standards.  How many american cities, despite vast improvements, would love to have those problems.


While I realize that Liverpool, Birmingham, and Glasgow have problems, are they really as bas as Detroit, Philadelphia, and Buffalo?  Has anyone here ever lived in both an old UKian industrial city and an USian rustbelt city?  Which type really is worse? 
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Is British Binge Drinking really that bad? | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
A combination of both by Breaker (3.00 / 3) #1 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:32:44 AM EST
There being a fair bit of it, whipped up into more than it is by the media and also the nannystate government we are currently enduring over here in UKia.

NuLabia's thoughts on the relaxation of the 11pm drinking up time to go full 24 hours (with the alcohol licence now containing custom opening and closing hours most pubs I know will stay open to midnight Sunday-Thursday then 2am on the weekend) was that it removed the 11:30 crush when everyone wants a taxi and a kebab.  They were expecting a move to a more continental style drinking culture. 

However, us UKians just love caning it.  And fighting. 




Rates of change by Alan Crowe (4.00 / 2) #13 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:27:21 PM EST
Is 24 hour drinking a good idea? I don't know.
What does strike me is that the theory that it will lead to a more continental style drinking culture is a theory about social change on the decade or generation timescale. Make the change, back it up with pub service announcements "Take it slow and enjoy it!" Something like that.

The current generation of drinkers will respond by continuing to drink fast as 11pm approaches and get too drunk and cause trouble. The next generation won't see the point. Things will change.

Well, maybe. It is completely bonkers to do a licencing hours hokey-hokey expecting a continental style drinking culture to emerge in a year or two and changing the law back when the impossible fails to happen.

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That's NuLabia for you! by Breaker (4.00 / 2) #14 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:38:16 PM EST
Opinion poll driven, when the polls agree with what they want to do.

I think largely it is because the UKian drinking culture is seen as a contest.  Can't drink 10 Stellas?  Then you're a big girls blouse.

I am surprised no one's gone through the history books - we are a nation that drinks to get drunk as opposed to the continental style of drinking for the taste and sociability.  Pepys's diary is quite illuminating on this, and all the tales of gin palaces in the 1800's.  So in fact, any clampdown on getting hammered is infringing our right to access our historical culture.

And let's not forget that the Saxon warriors would have special battle-mead to drink before going off fighting.


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Is Pepys still posting here? by georgeha (4.00 / 2) #15 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:24:52 PM EST
He's fallen off my hotlist.


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Pepys? by Vulch (4.00 / 2) #16 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 02:56:42 PM EST

Johnny-come-lately that he is.

"The French are proud and womanish; the Germans furious and obscene; the Lombards greedy, malicious, and cowardly; and the English are drunkards and have tails" according to Jacques de Vitry toward the end of the 12th century. So, no change there then. And he was in Paris at the time, so there's nothing new about us popping over the channel for a good piss-up either.

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"Dyere Darlynge by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #17 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 05:42:27 PM EST
Weathyre is here, wysh yew weyre lovelie.  Thee Olde Tescoe Merchantes hath verily run out ove thine fineste fizzy knyker solveynte for 10 Aenglish groats a flagon, thusly I have Arraynged 10 craytes of finest Chardonnai.  Weathrye is fyne, locals are fryndly but must keep posy under nose at all tymes." 


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The short answer is "No". by yicky yacky (4.00 / 3) #2 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:00:15 PM EST

The long answer is that we don't have an open sale of handguns here, so there isn't the massive body-count and overt gangland territorialism that underpins the perception of American violence. The UK in total has fewer firearms fatalities than somewhere like Baltimore, for example. On the other hand, the UK in total area is smaller than Oregon, so you have to choose the comparisons carefully.

When the newspapers get on their high horse about drink-fueled violence, they're not talking about 'violence' in the sense of the gangland (we have that here, but the emphasis is more on staying under the radar than an overt show of force, and tends to be limited to a handful of urban areas where the population density can support such structures). The newspapers are simply talking about "anti-social behaviour"; which they define not as serious criminality but as a alcohol-powered casual disrespect for the law punctuated by casual acts of physical violence on the street late at night (fights, brawls, pointless stabbings etc.). In this area (drunken "leisure fighting"), I'd say the UK is generally worse than the few bits of the US I've been to, but it's not that serious an issue; it just sells papers in the suburbs.


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You may not have the guns by ad hoc (4.00 / 2) #3 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:07:00 PM EST
but you do have an out-of-control Samurai sword problem. Or so I've been led to believe.
--
The three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.
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Nah. by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #5 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:16:30 PM EST

There have been fewer than 10 nutter-with-a-katana incidents[*] since the turn of the millenium. Unfortunately, they play into an area the press love, so they've been hyped beyond all proportion. Our government is incredibly media-reactive; they'd rather do something about a "sexy" non-problem and be seen to be doing something than get on with the task of doing boring, tedious, effective work.

[*] - Again - I'm not talking about the gangland (the Triads have a fondness for blades, for example, but this law isn't going to affect them one iota); I'm talking about the UK equivalent of Virginia-Tech-type goofballs; except, as no guns are involved, much less harm was done. In the US, any goofball can get a gun; here it's much harder, so they go with other items.


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According to ze Homeland Orifice by Rogerborg (4.00 / 4) #7 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:46:52 PM EST
"At least" ten murders and 80 "incidents" in "4 years".

Note: they don't say which 4 years.  Or where they get the figures, since they're not collated by the courts, CPS or police.

By the way, it's trivially easy to get a shotgun license in Soviet UKistan, if you have no police record and have never been diagnosed as a mentalist.  Since most scholastic duck-shoots are carried out by first-and-last time offenders, there's really very little barrier to them going disco with legally held smoothbores.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
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I'd wager by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #8 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:50:51 PM EST

that most of those are gang-related, though -- i.e. not people who'll be paying much attention the parliamentarians. Let's face it: It's about the goofball stories, and totally pointless. You can buy a cleaver, a scythe or an axe in most hardware stores.


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Also, by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #9 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:56:10 PM EST

the shotgun legislation has a "not more than three cartridges" caveat. You can get a double-barrel, or a pump-action with two in reserve (i.e. the sort of thing farmers and clay-pigeon shooters use) through the certificate system, but any more and you need a firearms licence (much more rigorous checks). Besides, the goofballs would have a high probability of failing the nutter check.


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You can get a 2" cannon on a shotgun cert. by Rogerborg (4.00 / 1) #11 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:10:32 PM EST
I mean, if we're comparing weight of shot

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
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I don't believe by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #12 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:12:54 PM EST

you need any licences for trebuchets. Seeing as we're discussing calibre ...


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"leisure fighting" - hehe I like that by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #4 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:14:08 PM EST
Awesome.

I think they should have little fight rings in town centres so the pissed up can have a go if they think  they're hard enough, leaving the peaceable revellers to enjoy their night. 

Only those that want to fight get in the ring.  And it'd be easy enough to put a couple of coppers and medics close by to prevent lasting injuries by stopping the fight if one person is down (anecdotally, most reports of drunken fights that end in murder / serious lasting injury are when the losing party gets knocked unconscious then gets kicked whilst down).

Stick a couple of TV cameras around the place to video it all and you've got a great new reality TV show - "Drunk Fight Club".


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There's a whole by yicky yacky (4.00 / 4) #6 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:25:46 PM EST

pedestrian versus car difference too. American settlements (a handful aside) are built around the car; ours tend to be built more around pedestrianised routes that have existed for centuries. In the US, people tend to come out of the bars, get in their cars, and go home. In the UK, you have hundreds of different drunken people, from tens of different bars, all walking on the street at the same time (a tiny city like Canterbury, for example, is almost completely pedestrian and has over 200 pubs in a very small area). Our urban structures are (generally) more conducive to a good ruckus. Basically.


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binge drinking by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #10 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:09:58 PM EST
Anecdotally I assume it's worse in the UK, but I think the issue ends up primarily in health stats (obesity, diabetes, gout, cancer, liver / kidney failure).

When I'm imprisoned as an enemy combatant, will you blog about it?


Like a lot of things by Herring (2.00 / 0) #18 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 06:03:11 PM EST
it's largely made up by the media who want to distract us from the fact that their corporate paymasters are shafting us. Next time a white middle-class, photogenic child goes missing it will all be forgotten.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey


Indeed. by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #19 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 06:32:34 PM EST
Been sent any photies of this missing child?


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By which I mean by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #20 Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 06:37:07 PM EST
As part of a massive media operation to get her home and safe, rather than anything else.


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I see it everynight on the news by hulver (2.00 / 0) #21 Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 08:17:00 AM EST
Local news mind you, they are still pushing people for information.
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smart, pretty, sane. pick two - georgeha
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Nothing like Madelaine though. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #22 Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 10:57:26 AM EST
Where people in many companies I know were actually seriously considering adding her photo to work email signatures, in most corner shops, everywhere.

They still have photos of Madelaine up at Stansted airport.


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Thank god by hulver (2.00 / 0) #23 Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 12:00:51 PM EST
How much of that is Maddy fatigue though?

That and the people living around her don't seem to give a shit, and won't until some paedo get's blamed. Then they'll have a good old lynching and get back to cheating the dole.
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smart, pretty, sane. pick two - georgeha
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True. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #24 Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 02:56:33 PM EST
I wonder how many people actually saw her picture, and she's still missing. 

But this blogger seems to have nailed why we're not seeing pictures of the newly missing child; scroll down a bit the get to the section I am on about.


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Yep by hulver (2.00 / 0) #25 Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 05:10:45 PM EST
Spot on.
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smart, pretty, sane. pick two - georgeha
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Is British Binge Drinking really that bad? | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback