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Attn USian infidels

By anonimouse (Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:42:09 PM EST) (all tags)

We interrupt Husi for some Daily Kos....

What did you think of Barack Obama's "A More Perfect Union" speech (assuming you listened to it all)?

Speech linky
It seems to have got some very divided reviews; like Marmite, you either love or hate it.

Whatever, I regarded it as rather more thoughtful and heartfelt than the usual speech that passes for politics nowadays.

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Attn USian infidels | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

It may well have been the most important speech by greyrat (4.00 / 1) #1 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:50:41 PM EST

since John F. Kennedy's "ask not" speech. I thought it was savvy, cunning, well thought, and appropriate. And it could probably be the symbolic tool to drag the entire planet forward to a higher plane of understanding and brotherhood. But this is the 21st century and anything good or wholesome or rational or reasonable is automatically drowned in a sea of AmericanIdolBigBrotherBrittanySpearsFederalReserveEvrythingsAlrightBeAfraidVeryVeryAfraidAndMakeSureToConsumerism.

So my reaction is pretty much "Meh".

Huckabee liked it. by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #2 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:57:00 PM EST

Seriously, he had some good things to say about the speech, and the problems it addressed.

Earth First!
_{(We can strip mine the rest later.)}
[ Parent ]

: The cunning part by ucblockhead (4.00 / 4) #5 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:06:20 PM EST

Given all the "Obama is a muslim" crap, it is in his own best interest to make sure as many people as possible hear about a controversy about what his pastor said.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

I wouldn't go that far by anonimouse (4.00 / 2) #6 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:06:56 PM EST

MLK did "I Have A Dream" in 1963, two years after "Ask Not", which I would regard as the definitive speech which dragged America forwards to a higher plane of understanding and brotherhood (even if it is a quarrelsome relationship).

But certainly a nominee for "Best USian political speech in last 10 years".

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
[ Parent ]

: But King was not a Presidential hopeful. by greyrat (4.00 / 1) #7 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:11:55 PM EST

That was my (admittedly hidden) criteria. Yes, King teh r0xx0rd on the Mall that day. but he didn't have the same kinds of things -- the potential of alienating millions of people who are going to give you your next job -- at stake.

[ Parent ]

Okay, that's excessive by notafurry (4.00 / 1) #8 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:18:36 PM EST

It was a good speech. It was artfully done. You can't possibly seriously believe it has the same power and impact of Kennedy's Moon landing speech.

[ Parent ]

Heaven forbid people have opinions (nt) by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #9 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:23:51 PM EST

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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

: You can have opinions. by notafurry (2.00 / 0) #31 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 11:56:32 AM EST

And in mine, this one would be batshit crazy.

[ Parent ]

You are correct. I do not believe it's as good. by greyrat (4.00 / 1) #10 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:25:00 PM EST

But I believe it's not as good because of AmericanIdolBigBrotherBrittanySpearsFederalReserveEvrythingsAlrightBeAfraidVeryVeryAfraidAndMakeSureToConsumerism more than anything else.

[ Parent ]

I agree by theboz (4.00 / 1) #18 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:43:10 PM EST

I'm not sure what it is about this country, that in the past few decades (at least) we've decided as a people to systematically take everything that is great and turn it into shit or just outright reject it. This applies to political candidates, music, food, science, etc.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]

It was honest by ucblockhead (4.00 / 3) #3 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 02:57:06 PM EST

...and truthful. Hence a lot of people with vested interests in black-and-white thinking are jumping up-and-down with complaints about how it didn't perfectly adhere to a worldview that doesn't presume blacks and whites.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}

Here we go. by wiredog (4.00 / 2) #4 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:03:49 PM EST

Truly,the apocalypse is nigh: Daily Kos Approvingly Quoting Huckabee.

Earth First!
_{(We can strip mine the rest later.)}

After watching... by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #11 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:28:11 PM EST

..Huckabee went up a few points in my opinion.

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
[ Parent ]

Huckabee by ucblockhead (4.00 / 3) #12 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:31:08 PM EST

He seems like an honest, thoughtful guy. Also a pretty nice one. Unfortunately, he holds views I find abhorrent.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

Corruption issues as well by cam (4.00 / 1) #13 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:34:20 PM EST

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

: And Obama BS'ed his legislative record. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #23 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:39:59 PM EST

Sadly, there isn't a candidate running that doesn't have some dirt on them. As a Calvinist, I'm okay with that - we're all corrupt by definition - but it must be hard on somebody looking for the clean candidate.

[ Parent ]

BTW, The parodies are already coming out. by greyrat (4.00 / 1) #14 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 03:38:50 PM EST

And they rule!

for a political speech by MillMan (4.00 / 2) #15 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:30:04 PM EST

it was pretty good. Here is a good deconstruction, though.

When I'm imprisoned as an enemy combatant, will you blog about it?

I thought he did a great job by theboz (4.00 / 2) #16 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:40:55 PM EST

There are multiple reasons that I don't feel like going into detail about, but I thought it was great, as far as speeches are concerned. Something of interest though, my black friends, including those not supporting Obama, indicated that what the preacher said is common in black churches and thought it was probably taken out of context. One coworker, for example, said his brother the preacher in New Orleans says things like that all the time. It does seem hypocritical that the media lets Pat Robertson get away with saying feminists and homosexuals caused 9/11, but the minute a minority says something just as distasteful the media makes it sound like they are evil. I personally don't like what Obama's preacher said, but he gave this speech saying he doesn't agree with all of his preacher's views. That should be good enough in my book. You don't see McCain still being given a bunch of shit over the words of that radio host who opened a fund raiser for him after McCain denounced him. I think it's time the right-wing got off their high horses and let this go. Besides, weren't they just telling us how Obama is secretly a radical muslim terrorist? What happened with all that?
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n

A well delivered speech, and more thoughtful by chuckles (4.00 / 2) #17 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST

than what we usually get from US politicians. That's a pretty low standard, though, and I don't think the speech was thoughtful enough. I heard him reiterate traditional black grievances, and I heard the new thing of him feeling the pain of working- and middle-class whites, but what does he propose doing about it? Oh yeah...

In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds – by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.

Which sounds a lot like "you know all those social welfare programs we've been pouring billions into since LBJ? Let's stick with that, but re-brand it as HOPE and CHANGE". And is he under the impression that our existing civil rights laws aren't being enforced?

Sent from my iPhone.

Well by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #19 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 05:52:02 PM EST

I'm not sure you can honestly characterize our current criminal justice system as "fair" and as far as education goes, well, my wife's school, in one of richer areas of the state, has to cut $1 million from the budget this year, and will likely have to cut a further $1 million next year.
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_{ウセーバラケダ}
[ Parent ]

: The two-tiered legal system in this country... by chuckles (4.00 / 1) #21 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:50:13 PM EST

is divided by wealth far more than race.
Sent from my iPhone.

[ Parent ]
: It's only going to get worse when those homeschool by georgeha (4.00 / 1) #24 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:44:48 PM EST

kids get dragged back into the public school system.

[ Parent ]

oh yea the justice system is great in this country by alprazolam (4.00 / 1) #20 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 06:48:14 PM EST

you a big chuck rosenthal fan?

[ Parent ]

I thought it was good. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #22 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:36:54 PM EST

n/t

An absolutely great speach.... by joh3n (4.00 / 3) #25 Wed Mar 19, 2008 at 08:58:47 PM EST

...that will fail to change anyone's minds. The bulk of the people who either watched or read all of it are likely Obama supporters anyway. Everyone else is opting for the CNN summary, which was basically 'Obama denounces pastor' or some other crap, which completely misses the point.

People are lazy. They dont want speeches, they want soundbites. Obama has good ones, Clinton has good ones, McCain has good ones. Were it up to the people who listen to whole speaches, then this race would have been over on Super Tuesday.

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I just ate about 7 pounds of meat
-theantix

That's not fair. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #29 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 09:37:48 AM EST

The speeches aren't any less a dog and pony show. They're written by committee, the strategists sign off, the candidate tweaks, and away one goes. This one even goes so far as to cut and paste from previous ghostwritten works and other speeches.

The speech versus soundbite debate (as opposed to the voting and legislative record versus public proclamation debate) is basically a fight between people who like their used-car salesman to chat them up first and people who prefer a bold guy who will just shove the keys at them.

Neither is more honest or genuine and the soundbite at least has the advantage of efficiency. If you're going to have smoke blown up your ass, why waste 30 to 45 minutes on it? Get it done in 3.5 seconds and go on your merry way.

As far as I see it, leaving the elections to people who listened to whole speeches would be leaving it in hands of people who really don't have much to do with their lives.

[ Parent ]

counterpoint by joh3n (4.00 / 1) #30 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 11:17:21 AM EST

At least the speeches can construct an argument and lay it out in some modicum of detail. Consider Obama's speech.

Version 1) I don't agree with the pastor, but don't disown him.

Version 2) Obama's actual speech.

Version 1 does identically nothing beyond being a soundbite, whereas version 2 lets you understand the argument.

I simply dont want a 5 second summary of how you are going to "fix" America: 'I'll bring jobs back!' 'I'll end this war' etc etc etc. Instead, I want to hear some sort of cogent argument. No political moment gives me that argument, but a speech does a hell of a lot better than a bumper sticker.

By your line of reasoning, it is completely irrelevant where you get your information about a candidate. Website? Smoke up your ass. Speech? smoke up your ass. Debate? Smoke up your ass. Might as well get out a dart board and choose that way. Half of me actually agrees with that, but the other half that clings to some small amount of belief that government can still work wants to believe it can make an informed decision.

Yes, speeches are written by committee. This just in: governments are run that way too. If a speech is good, that's some indication that not just the speaker, but his team have something going for them.

And finally, theres actually something to be said for being inspired by a speech, no matter how hollow it is. All the other speeches people quote when they talk about Obama's speech (example: I have a dream, or man the moon) have just as little substance, but they inspire.

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I just ate about 7 pounds of meat
-theantix
[ Parent ]

My line of reasoning. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #32 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 12:15:45 PM EST

Actually, in my comment I suggested you look at the voting and legislative record of the candidate rather than public proclamations. This just in: That's how this government works. You want to know what kind of politician Obama is, you can see that actual record of what he has done or you can here him quote from his book and rehash direct lines from previous speeches going back to the 2004 convention.

Hey, Obama, where on Earth is your story possible?

2004, Democratic convention keynote address:
"In no other country on earth, is my story even possible."

2004, Senate campaign address:
"I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible."

2006, from his book "The Audacity of Hope":
"In no other country on earth is my story even possible."

2008 campaign stop in Kansas:
"For as long as I live, I will never forget that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible."

2008:
"As long as I live, I will never forget that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible."

We could go on.

Tell me Joh3n - since you pay attention to speeches so carefully - is this less or more inspirational after four years of repetition?

Finally, there's something to be said against inspirational speeches as well. Nobody is citing "It's Morning in America" or "Checkers" because they are proof that any vile jackass can string together words that give American voters a big, fat rubbery one.

Honestly, I liked the speech perfectly fine. It was a nice speech. But I think that pretending that stuff like this would have ended the primaries if Americans were just smarter is giving folks short shrift.

[ Parent ]

touche by joh3n (4.00 / 1) #33 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 02:22:25 PM EST

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I just ate about 7 pounds of meat
-theantix
[ Parent ]

Still, well-played good sir. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #34 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 02:23:34 PM EST

It is, as always, an honor.

[ Parent ]

: Likewise by joh3n (2.00 / 0) #35 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 02:39:34 PM EST

If anything, I suspect we're arguing the same thing. And you are certainly correct that legislative record should be a huge factor (if it exists), assuming that it's taken in context of the legislation being voted on (e.g. how DARE you vote agains the WE LOVE AMERICA [and we're gonna kill this puppy to prove it] act. You hate America!).

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I just ate about 7 pounds of meat
-theantix
[ Parent ]

Too busy watching BSG. by ammoniacal (4.00 / 2) #26 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 03:22:51 AM EST

RECALL THE VIPERS AND PREP FOR JUMP, GODS DAMMIT!
THRRRRUUUUMMMMMM!!!
SEASON 3, BABY!!!

This coomenat has be n soidnsord by hurricanbe ice malt liqur

: Roger that by Rogerborg (4.00 / 2) #28 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 08:55:28 AM EST

Kidlings offloaded.
Beer chilled.
Paella nuked.
Shrink wrap violated.
Let's get the THRUMMM on.

-
Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

I finally get why Kos likes him by Rogerborg (4.00 / 3) #27 Thu Mar 20, 2008 at 05:09:28 AM EST

They both take every opportunity to plug their books.

-
Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.

I'm trying hard to avoid learning too much about by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #36 Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 01:50:52 PM EST

Obama because he's the only candidate that hasn't pissed me off yet and I'm afraid that I'll learn something that will make me vote Libertarian again.

--
Has anybody seen my clue? I know I had it when I came in here.

Attn USian infidels | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

-	Liked it - Voting Republican	0%
-	Liked it - Supporting Hillary	6%
-	Liked it - voting for Obama	40%
-	Disliked it - Voting Republican	6%
-	Disliked it - Supporting Hillary	6%
-	Disliked it - Supporting Obama	0%
-	It was ok	6%
-	Don't care	33%


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