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Diary
By TheophileEscargot (Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 12:22:46 PM EST) Reading, Watching, MLP (all tags)
Reading: "A History of Warfare". Watching: "Waltz with Bashir". Web.


What I'm Reading
A History of Warfare by John Keegan. Well-written and informative book by a military historian and sometime journalist. It's partly an overview of military history, but has a strong theme: that Clausewitz was wrong to say "war is the continuation of politics by other means."

Keegan puts an emphasis on how warfare can be an expression of culture. This explains a lot about how militaries can stubbornly stick with obsolete tactics and weapons long after they're proven useless. Keegan also believes that there is an element of cultural consensus in the war cultures fight. For instance, the heavy cavalry of European mediaeval knights had a kind of consensus that warfare is about heavy cavalry charges and standing up to them: that was seen as the manly thing to do. When they encountered the Mongols, light cavalry using composite bows, they were confused and frustrated that the Mongols saw nothing unmanly about scattering well out the way and picking them off from a distance.

He also regards the pitched infantry battles of Western warfare in and after the Greeks in a similar light: as a kind of culturally agreed ritual.

He says that there is a kind of "primitive warfare", which occurs most often throughout the world. (This seems to me a lot like the way football hooligans clash). The different sides face each other and shout abuse and insults, sometimes hurling missiles. Occasionally, the challenges will result in almost-duels between individuals, one from each side. Occasionally, one side will make a sally. If you start to lose, you retreat. The Aztec "flower wars" are examples of this. While dangerous, a battles doesn't tend to result in masses of deaths.

Keegan seems to partly follow the "Western Way of War" theory. In this view, the ancient Greeks broke from primitive warfare by inventing the phalanx. Managing to defy the deep instinct to flee, they created a new and much more lethal form of warfare, where many of the opposing side would be slaughtered in a single battle. In his view, in the wars between the Greeks and the Persians, the Persians were still using "primitive warfare", and couldn't cope with this strange and savage innovation.

He seems to differ from the traditional "Western Way of War" theory by crediting the "horse peoples" of the steppe (Huns, Mongols, Magyars etc) with creating their own way of warfare independently, based on herding and hunting in the plains. In his view infantry-humans could be outflanked, isolated and butchered in much the same way as prey animals, without much need to develop new tactics. This kind of warfare is as brutal as the "Western Way", but like primitive warfare involves sallying and retreating, rather than direct confrontation to the death.

Keegan also hypothesizes that the Crusades were crucial because it brought European soldiers, versed in the Western Way, into contact directly with Mongols, and with Turkish warriors using horse-people tactics. This allowed them to synthesize the two deadliest ways of warfare. In his theory, this was taken back to Spain and used in the Reconquest, then even on into the New World by the Conquistadors. Stuck with their primitive warfare traditions like the "flower wars", the poor Amerindians didn't stand a chance.

The last bit seems a bit of a stretch: there wasn't that much contact between Crusaders and Mongols, and as we've seen soldiers can be quite resistant to new ideas.

Also I think Keegan might be underestimating the practical difficulties in getting armies with innovative weapons and tactics. Rather than cultural resistance, armies might just get trapped in local optima, where they can't adopt new ways of fighting without losing too much fighting-power while they're adapting.

Overall though, an interesting, thought-provoking book, well worth a look for the big picture. With the whole of history to cover though (well, except the peaceful bits), it's pretty shallow on most specifics.

Interesting tidbit: the reason ancient cultures used chariots for fighting was they hadn't managed to breed large horses yet. They were only the size of small ponies and couldn't carry a man's weight. In the early stages they could only carry people sitting on their hindquarter with limited control.

What I'm Watching
Saw Waltz with Bashir at the cinema. Animated documentary about an Israeli guy gradually recovering his memories of his part in the Lebanon war, by interviewing other men in his unit.

Pretty good. Animation style is a bit disconcerting. Seems to have a 3D backdrop using blurred photos. The the foreground characters look hand-drawn: but complicated shadows move across them: not sure if they're 3D modelled or just solid drawing. The movement is very unrealistic though, with robotically smooth shifts between static postures: looks as if it's crudely interpolated by computer, without any physics model.

Movie itself is pretty effective, with plenty of striking images. Heavily influenced by the Vietnam war movies like Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket: lots of juxtapositions between the soldiers partying and fighting.

The ending seem a bit sudden and a bit of a cop-out. The animated pictures showing the aftermath of the Sabra and Shatila massacre are dissolved into real newsreel footage, as if they don't have confidence of the power of the animation itself.

Still, a pretty powerful and haunting movie, well worth a look.

Peter Bradshaw, Times, Derek Nalco, reviews.

What I'm Watching 2
Got somewhat conned movie-wise. Picked up Flight 93 on DVD in the library, thinking it was United 93. They're both docudramas following the event of United Flight 93, the plane that crashed on September 11th when the passengers tried to retake it from the hijackers.

However, the one I watched was a Fox TV movie, the one I wanted was the Paul Greengrass (Bourne director) cinema movie.

It wasn't too bad: the subject matter is too compelling, but got a bit cheesy with sentimental music and overblown irony (practically everyone on board seems to have swapped shifts or raced through customs to make it).

Web
Shatner reacts to Star Trek trailer.

Rockets build bridge.

Pics. Food art. Creative Grooming Awards.

The academic economic crisis: "What we have witnessed in recent months is not only the fracturing of the world's financial system but the discrediting of an academic discipline."

Graph: BNP members by occupation (via).

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It's an enemy to all mankind | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Bugger - now I have Spizz Energi on the brain by Herring (4.00 / 1) #1 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 12:44:16 PM EST
Or is it Athletico Spizz 80?

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge - Charles Darwin


Damn by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #2 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 01:07:10 PM EST
Bastard by Herring (4.00 / 1) #5 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 02:46:03 PM EST
Now I have that on the brain too.

Also: Was economics ever a respected discipline?

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge - Charles Darwin
[ Parent ]

Economics was once as bona fide as chemistry by Alan Crowe (4.00 / 2) #7 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 05:59:07 PM EST
In A World Ruled by Number Margaret Schabas, working last century, wrote

It is worth emphasizing the extent to which political economy, by the middle of the last century, (she is referring to 1850) was recognized as a legitimate, if not exemplary science, since historians have had a tendency to project current insecurities over the status of economics back into the past. One source of confusion, perhaps, are the frequent appeals by classical economists to Newtonian mechanics. But this was de rigueur of every scientific tract. Indeed, whereas political economists could readily proclaim Adam Smith as the Newton of his age, chemists were divided between Lavoisier and Davy. Another source might be the general conflation of science with technology in our century and the tendency to appraise science in terms of its engineering feats. But in the time of Smith and Ricardo, science was primarily a branch of philosophy, the search for truth rather than a technical mastery of the world.

Many in the natural science, John Herschel and William Whewell most notably, had a high esteem for, if not active interest in, political economy. Charles Babbage led a successful campaign in the early days of the British Association for the Advancement of Science to secure a place --- the notorious Section F --- for political economy and statistics. At Cambridge, the tripos in the moral sciences was established as the same time as the one for the natural sciences (1838). We have tended to lose sight of the immense impact Smith, Malthus, and Quetelet had with their insights into the social order. But there is a reason to believe that Darwin and Maxwell, among others, worked under their spell. As historians are beginning to recognize, one cannot fully assess Victorian science without considering the impact and influence of political economy.

By early nineteenth-century standards, political economy was about as bona fide a science as chemistry. According to the received view, both emerged in the their modern guise in the 1770s. But it was not until the 1830s that these subjects were widely recognized in the form of university professorships....



[ Parent ]

I wouldn't be entirely surprised by wumpus (4.00 / 1) #9 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 09:36:41 PM EST
if mid-19th century chemistry was only as likely to get the answers right as economics (now or then).  Maxwell's equations date only back to the 1880s (according to wiki, anyway).  Comparing it to pre-evolution (by natural selection) biology can't be too much of a stretch either.

Wumpus



[ Parent ]

War, etc. by Metatone (4.00 / 1) #3 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 01:07:52 PM EST
"Western war" is defined by (average) % of slaughter? Or is it something more?

Econ... the paper concentrates on the sub-fields of banking/finance - which are poster children for what happens when an academic sector becomes entirely subservient to industry. There's a thin layer of government/EU funding, but the rest comes from collaborations with banks, etc. Throw in the pressure to produce research topics which lead to internships/jobs for students and you get... a complete concentration on "technical innovation" - and just not many people at all studying broader trends in the industry, or trying to work out what reserve requirements should be, etc. etc.

I don't know if the dysfunction in that subfield can generalise to a discredition of academic economics as a whole though.

Stepping up a level, I can't find the post, but Martin Wolf has written that a further problem is that even if all the "units" of academic economics were working well (which they weren't), the practice of large scale macro-economics research/theorising has been in decline. Few people were looking for the systemic effects, the knock on effects between housing, debt, credit, etc. etc.

He didn't seem to take the time out to write about "why", though...





Western way of war by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #4 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 01:15:11 PM EST
I think it's more about the concept of a decisive battle fought through head-on confrontation, originally through infantry. I haven't read the book though.
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Butch and Petey are harsh and unforgiving in their estimation of female beauty.
[ Parent ]

"Western" would have to be widened by wumpus (4.00 / 1) #10 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 09:39:55 PM EST
considering what Hannibal pulled off at Cannae.  Possibly changing this to the "African way of war".

Wumpus



[ Parent ]

The trouble with that by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #11 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 10:12:34 PM EST
Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", written around 500 BC in  China, was all about decisive battles fought through head-on confrontation.  (Actually, that's not true: it was partly about avoiding such things when necessary to achieve strategic victory.)  In China, at least, the concept of set-piece battles was as old as the Greek phalanxes.
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[ Parent ]

creative groomers.. by sasquatchan (4.00 / 1) #6 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 03:24:05 PM EST
what an interesting bunch. Wonder how many of those pics now have lolcat captions on them, floating around the interweb.



`western' adoption of Turkish warfare by lm (4.00 / 2) #8 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 07:43:27 PM EST
Vlad Tepes (Dracula), among other medieval European royalty, was schooled in Constantinople at the Ottoman court. His father sent both him and his brother (Radu the Handsome, IIRC) as hostages. I suspect that more cross-cultural pollination of methods of war of this sort took place than in The Crusades per se.

Also, I have a bit of a hard time believing that the ancient Persians fought battles in the primitive fashion described. It's hard to imagine a host of a million or so foot soldiers approaching the field like samurai looking for the equivalent of individual duels. And the ancient literature of more than one people group from Middle East and Europe have tales of warfare that seems to have approached genocide. But maybe I'm just stuck looking at the past anachronistically. And, admittedly, multiple men fighting in a single unit was quite the innovation. As was the Greek style heavy armor for foot soldiers.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic


Ancient battles by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #13 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 10:24:09 PM EST
Having just read the beginning of the KJV Bible (well, listened to at least) I can't help but notice how full that work, describing events occurring centuries before Marathon, is of peoples completely massacring the other side in battle.  Clearly the authors of that work did not find the concept of set battles in which one side killed/drove off the other strange.
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[ Parent ]

War by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #12 Sun Nov 30, 2008 at 10:20:21 PM EST
I have some problems with that.  For one, consider the Romans, who battered all their neighbors with very regularized legions for a hundreds of years, yet those neighbors never really attempted to copy them.  I don't think it was any sort of arbitrary culture of war.  I think the Romans developed technological and cultural means of warfare that their neighbors couldn't copy.

It sounds like Keegan puts too much stock in "new ideas" and not enough stock in the infrastructure changes required to use a new style of warfare.  The Mongol way of life, with men spending all their lives in the saddle herding beasts was far more amenable to their hit-and-run warfare than the Western agriculture way, which relied on small minorities with leisure to train in heavily armored warfare with lots of serfs for cannon fodder.  The West couldn't copy the Mongols without copying their culture.

To go back to the Romans, they mostly started having troubles when the surrounding peoples (the "barbarians") had adopted their culture enough to fight in a similar manner.
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Horse peoples, Romans by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #14 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 02:07:15 AM EST
Keegan has quite a bit on them that I didn't write up.

He points out that steppe horsemen could build up huge herds of horses, which are necessary in a horse war due to very high attrition. Agricultural peoples couldn't get nearly enough horses to compete. So there's a repeated pattern of horse peoples invading the cultivated land. Sometimes they'd be driven off. Sometimes they'd leave after finding too many horses starved. Sometimes they'd take over and become a new aristocracy (like the Mongols and Turks). But once they'd taken over the cultivated lands, they couldn't raise enough horses to compete, so they'd be vulnerable to new waves of invaders, even if they kept to their original tactics.

Mainly disagree over Rome though. When they started out they were surrounded by Hellenized city states with sophisticated Macedonian phalanxes (operating in conjuction with cavalry). The Roman Republic expanded by slugging it out with them toe to toe.

In the late Roman empire, encroaching horse peoples made infantry less and less useful anyway. The late Roman army started adopting the weapons and tactics of the barbarians around them (partly due to employing them), the abandoned the pilum and hoop armour, adopted longer spears, started favouring cavalry (see Belisarius for instance).
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Butch and Petey are harsh and unforgiving in their estimation of female beauty.
[ Parent ]

Germans by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #18 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 10:26:25 AM EST
Where do the gallic wars fit in all that?
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[ Parent ]

Not significant by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #20 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 10:35:37 AM EST
Except possibly as internal propaganda for Julius C.

[ Parent ]

I mean northern europe in general by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #21 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 10:40:24 AM EST
Caesar was hardly the only Roman to fight the Gauls/Germans.
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[ Parent ]

Even there by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #22 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 11:10:46 AM EST
Northern Europe wasn't that important. Real civilization was based around the Mediterranean, and most of the wealth in the Eastern half of that.

Their excursions into Germany and Transalpine Gaul don't tell us a lot about the expansion of Rome. It was basically a bit of playtime after the serious business in North Africa, Greece, Spain...

[ Parent ]

"playtime" by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #23 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 11:49:25 AM EST
Well, the Gauls did sack Rome in its early history, and the Germans certainly did threaten it a number of times in Republican times.  I wouldn't say German armies destroying Roman legions on the field was "playtime".
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[ Parent ]

Well by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #24 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 01:54:12 PM EST
It was very early in their history that the Gauls sacked Rome, before their expansion really got started. And it wasn't till pretty late in the Empire that the Germans became a serious threat.

[ Parent ]

Don't forget by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #25 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 02:30:16 PM EST
Gaius Marius had to run north to fight them.
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[ Parent ]

Bah, everyone's so obsessed by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #26 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:15:21 PM EST
With the Gauls and the Germans, just because Julius Caesar made such a huge self-serving deal out of his pleb-pleasing antics.

It's so fricking boring. The hard bit, the impressive bit, the interesting bit, the useful bit of the expansion of Rome is the way they slugged it out with so many other advanced city-based civilizations with sophisticated, disciplined armies.

But all everyone cares about is border skirmishes with trouser-wearing pigtailed buffoons.

[ Parent ]

So by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #27 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:26:22 PM EST
When trouser-wearing pigtailed buffoons kill 20,000 Roman soldiers, it is a mere "border skirmish"?  When trouser-wearing pigtailed buffoons kill the Roman head of State, it is a mere "border skirmish"?

Other than Carthage, none of those city-based civilizations with sophisticated, disciplined armies ever posed a serious threat to Rome itself.  This is in contrast to the "trouser-wearing pigtailed buffoons" who actually threatened the existence of Rome more than once in the early-to-mid Republican and brought about the Western empire's end a centuries later.

The Romans themselves certainly found German "skirmishes" worthy of note.
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[ Parent ]

Yes by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #28 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 04:57:54 PM EST
Neither of those incidents threatened Rome itself, or even the area around the Mediterranean, which was crucial since civilization depended on sea transport.

The Teutoberg Forest battle was a one-off ambush, without any real tactical implications. The Romans were used to losing armies. It was practically their modus operandi: keep sending out armies until your enemy goes broke killing them. Germany just wasn't worth the effort of continuing that.

Plus there are nationalist elements to which bits of Roman history are popular. North Europeans like to concentrate on Rome's interaction with North Europeans: they're less interested in Jugurtha or the Parthians for instance.

[ Parent ]

Partians by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #29 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 06:12:08 PM EST
The Parthians never got within a thousand miles of Rome.  The forays the Romans made against them in the hundred years they were in conflict essentially came to nothing and had little effect on the empire.  This is in contrast to the conquest of Gaul, which occurred during the same period, and had a profound effect both on the empire and future Europe.

Immediately after dealing with Jugurtha, who never threatened Rome itself, Marius had to run north to stop the Germans, who were making a deliberate attempt to invade the Italian peninsula.  The losses the Romans incurred against the Germans were higher and the legions Marius led against them were larger than those he led in Africa.  Marius' military reforms were driven by the needs of the campaigns against the Germans, and not the prior war with Jugurtha, and it was this later campaign that saw him labeled "savior of Rome".  Clearly the Romans themselves thought the conflict more than a minor skirmish.
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[ Parent ]

Tactical and strategic significance by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #30 Tue Dec 02, 2008 at 05:26:32 AM EST
The Parthian wars had an important tactical significance: they showed that the Roman army, even at its height, never managed to cope with horse archers. That would come back to haunt them.

(The Jugurthan wars had a less important strategic value, in consolidating Roman control over North Africa, the breadbasket of the mediterranean).

However, it's true that both of those had less significance that the the Pyrric and Punic wars, which had enemy armies maneuvering around Italy itself.

Another thing about the Gallic and Germanic wars is that they're useful to teach lessons that both ancient and modern armies are very eager to learn: that lavishly funding and training your army can produce nice asymmetrical victories... if you happen to choose a suitably primitive foe.

Even the Teotoberg forest incident is useful from that regard: since the problem was trusting an ally, the lesson you can take is not to rely on diplomacy.

The Parthian wars teach a lesson that they're much more reluctant to learn: that your lavishly-funded army can still get its arse kicked if its military culture isn't suited to that particular war.

The Pyrric and Punic wars teach that however effective your training and tactics are, victory can still come down to a grinding war of attrition, sending arrow-fodder off to get slaughtered over years or decades.

So, both ancient and modern military men naturally like and liked to concentrate on the Gallic and Germanic wars: the lessons they can learn are the ones they want to learn. Whereas the Pyrric, Punic and Parthian wars teach lessons that are uncomfortable and they prefer to ignore.

[ Parent ]

Spanish vs Amerindians:it almost ended differently by Tonatiuh (4.00 / 1) #15 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 06:18:24 AM EST
I think the conclusion of the author of the book about this topic is not really correct. The Spanish conquered the Aztec Empire (one of the 2 main Amerindian Empires back then) by allying themselves with oppressed tribes that believed they would be better off without the Nahuatls (Aztecs) and by a sheer act of luck: the locals had no immunity against some European diseases, so they were greatly decimated by those.

At some point Cortes' forces were expelled from downtown Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) leaving behind many death comrades. Any sensible person would have head back to Spain, but Cortes was not sensible and was an escaped criminal, so turning back was not an option really.

I find suspect the claim that the tactics described would have affected military operations in any meaningful way. Mexico City was an island, accessible only through 4 man made land bridges, people entering town were sitting ducks from a military point of view, horses or no horses, organized in groups or not.

This eventually changed when Cortes  laid siege against Tenochtitlan using naval technology in the lake around town, and by massing  sheer numbers around the island in order to ensure all supplies were cut out.

People starved to death and died of smallpox, this has hardly anything to do with what the author seems to imply.

Wikipedia is quite helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tenochtitlan






IIRC by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #19 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 10:32:06 AM EST
Cortes himself was nearly trapped and killed when he was expelled from Tenochtitlan. It is an accident of history that we don't speak of Cortez the same way we speak of Custer.

I read and enjoyed this treatment of those events.

Also, again going by memory, that author claims that the difference in tactics was mostly only an issue at the beginning. The Aztecs figured things out pretty quick, but had been decimated by disease, and even more importantly, had pissed off enough of the surrounding peoples to the extent that they were willing to join the Spanish.
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[ Parent ]

Graph: BNP members by occupation by Dr H0ffm4n (4.00 / 2) #16 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 06:53:00 AM EST
Should be "Graph: BNP members by SWP grouping of occupation to show that police, soldiers and security workers are all Nazis"



Culture by Scrymarch (4.00 / 1) #17 Mon Dec 01, 2008 at 10:02:19 AM EST
Keegan book sounds great.

I still find it striking how traditionally elevated pursuits, devalued by modernism in favour of, say, secular fine art, are then given some redemption by noticing that they too are expressions of culture. Religion being one example - eg willingness of a certain kind of person to see a Buddhist temple as a beautiful expression of culture but to flee from religion at home. But it goes just as much for war. Of course an endeavour as complicated and crucial as war is an expression of culture, and so prone to all the fashions and inertia of human activity.

There's also something to other posters' point that the culture itself is supported by technological and economic circumstance.

The "Western Way of War" is also interesting, though I can't buy that it is exclusively Western. I also wonder how the slave economies of the ancient era fed into it. If you are going to war in part for people, do you really want a massacre? Perhaps no, perhaps yes, so long as you can take the dead soldiers families afterwards.

The Political Science Department of the University of Woolloomooloo



Poor Captain Kirk by duxup (4.00 / 1) #31 Tue Dec 02, 2008 at 11:03:30 AM EST
*tear*

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It's an enemy to all mankind | 31 comments (31 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback