Diaries
Everything
Who's Online?
FAQ / Help

Print Story Breaking up the monotony
Diary
By Vertical Frankenstein (Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:26:28 PM EST) (all tags)
Work, female biological unit, election 2008, Islam.

Work continues to get weirder.  About six months ago the owner was at some kind of dinner schmooze fest with vendors, including our competitors.  He started talking candidly about our product development--specifically the product I'm in charge of developing.  In the course of an hour he outlined our plans for the new product.

One of our competitors was sitting across the table.  We've learned they're now developing a very similar product. 

Is this just a hobby or do you people want to make money?

Met a girl at a holiday party.  We seemed to hit it off but with holidays and traveling I never called her.  I saw her again at another get together--spent more time talking.  We're getting together for a one-on-one thing in a few hours.  Not sure what to make of it yet.  Too early to tell.

Still waffling between Hillary and Obama.  Hillary has done a great job as a US Senator for NY, but, like many people, I'm worried about the Bush-Clinton-Bush-(Clinton) legacy of the last twenty years.  Perhaps it's time to break that pattern.

I think Obama would make an excellent president.  Plus, he doesn't have all the baggage that comes with the Clintons.  Rush would be back on top if Clinton was elected--he's got the anti-Clinton bashing down to a science and his viewers eat it up.

On the other hand, Clinton has been fully vetted.  If the Republicans had found a career-ending skeleton in Hillary's closet, it would have surfaced.  Obama is very new to the political scene.  There could still be something lurking in his past--nonsense about madrasas not-withstanding.

Bah.  I just don't know, yet.

Saw a white Muslim couple at Whole Foods yesterday.  The dude had a long Jesus/Mohammed beard and the gal had the full-body covering on.  Their daughter had a head-scarf on.  I support people's freedom to believe what they like about the supernatural, but what's so damn compelling about Islam that you'd get that serious about a non-western religion... while living in the west?

Islam is a lot more scary than Christianity has been for a very long time.  I really hope the United States' strong power of cross-generational assimilation prevents the kind of Islamification that we're seeing in Europe.  The European liberals are so caught up in political correctness and multiculturalism they don't see the threat at their door.

The world needs more moderate Muslims.  It's the only hope we have in forcing a mutation in Islam that spawns a less virulent strain.  If the U.S. needs to act as a breeding ground for moderate Islam, then so be it.  In the process, I just hope the contagion doesn't get out of control.

You should listen to this.  Breaks up the monotony.

< First of 2008 | BBC White season: 'Rivers of Blood' >

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:
Related Links
- You should listen to this
- Vertical Frankenstein's Diary
Google

Comment Controls
View: Display: Sort:
Breaking up the monotony | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
I know what you mean. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #1 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:32:58 PM EST
When I see a white chick wearing the veil and gown, pushing the stroller, and speaking like she grew up in the Valley, I always give 'em that hard, disapproving stare. Happens about once a month here.

Seriously, who are they trying to impress?

This coomenat has be n soidnsord by hurricanbe ice malt liqur


religion is a mystery by iGrrrl (4.00 / 1) #2 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:35:14 PM EST
...but what's so damn compelling about Islam that you'd get that serious about a non-western religion... while living in the west?

One can also wonder what's so damn compelling about Christianity. As for weterners taking on an eastern religion, everyone who lives here in my town is white American by background. Not one hails from the Indian subcontinent, but they all wear Sikh turbans, even the kids, and the grownups mostly dress in white robes.

"I don't have time for martial law, I have to get to the gym!" zarathus


Yes by Vertical Frankenstein (2.00 / 0) #8 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 05:23:32 PM EST
One can also wonder what's so damn compelling about Christianity.

Agreed, but religion spreads through families.  There's something special about a white westerner (most likely raised Christian), living in the west, converting to Islam.

As for weterners taking on an eastern religion, everyone who lives here in my town is white American by background. Not one hails from the Indian subcontinent, but they all wear Sikh turbans, even the kids, and the grownups mostly dress in white robes.

Interesting.

[ Parent ]

I totally agree by Driusan (2.00 / 0) #3 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:39:32 PM EST
Also, the jews did Y2K. And who let all these blacks in?



I disagree by joh3n (2.00 / 0) #4 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:41:54 PM EST
If the Republicans had found a career-ending skeleton in Hillary's closet, it would have surfaced.

Quite the contrary.  They would wait for her to be the nominee, then trot it out in October.

----
I just ate about 7 pounds of meat
-theantix


I don't think so by Vertical Frankenstein (2.00 / 0) #7 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 05:17:53 PM EST
Quite the contrary.  They would wait for her to be the nominee, then trot it out in October.

I don't think they could contain themselves.  They'd blow their load the second they found anything.

[ Parent ]

a very good point. by garlic (2.00 / 0) #20 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 03:48:38 PM EST


[ Parent ]

How far east of Jerusalem is Mecca? 200km? 300km? by lm (4.00 / 3) #5 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:53:20 PM EST
I don't know that it's really fair to categorize Islam as a non-western religion unless one is also going to categorize Christianity and Judaism in such a fashion.

But what's attractive about Islam is (1) it's easy to understand (no disputes about the doctrine of the Trinity or the dual natures of Christ), (2) some flavors of Sufi mysticism have a degree of ritual that makes it appealing to `new age' types combined with a quasi-universalism that makes them feel faithful to their `new age' roots, and (3) it offers absolute answers in chaotic world. In the US, it's been my experience that most converts to Islam (outside of conversion due to marriage) are converts to the Sufi school.

IMO, the chief problem with Islam is that a certain virulent sects are being funded by some very large world players. Imagine the black eye to Christianity if Eric Rudolf and Fred Phelps had been funded by the US government to take their particular brand of Christianity across the globe by any means necessary. In other words, this is less a problem with Islam itself and more a problem with a handful of countries whose organization is very close to still being feudal. While there are Islamic extremists in Indonesia and Maylaysia, as two examples, most Muslims in these countries are pretty moderate.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic


Yeah by Vertical Frankenstein (2.00 / 0) #6 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 05:13:02 PM EST
I don't know that it's really fair to categorize Islam as a non-western religion unless one is also going to categorize Christianity and Judaism in such a fashion.

Fair point.  Traditionally, Islam hasn't found many converts in Western, European societies.

In other words, this is less a problem with Islam itself and more a problem with a handful of countries whose organization is very close to still being feudal.

I strongly disagree.  While I don't discount the effect of near feudal states, the Koran is quite a bit more frightening than the Bible.  The Koran departs from the Bible by offering not just a (repulsive) moral framework, but also a political framework.  That's a very dangerous combination and a direct threat to democratic societies.  It's not enough to have a secular state with a Muslim culture.  The Koran mandates, and even provides the blueprints for, an Islamic culture and state.

Millions (billions?) of Muslims wait for the day the Caliphate rises and Sharia law reigns supreme.

I know this sounds dire.  I'm not yet convinced we've slipped over the precipice.  But we're damn close.

[ Parent ]

You need to more moderate Muslims by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #9 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 06:07:05 PM EST
the ones I know are pretty cool, about the only way you can tell is their names, and refusal to eat pig.


[ Parent ]

Maybe by Vertical Frankenstein (2.00 / 0) #11 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:10:59 PM EST
But I think the moderates need to take a more active role in condemning the death cult Muslims.  When suicide bombers strike, the moderates mostly remain silent.  When you ask them why they don't speak out, they claim it's not their obligation to apologize for other Muslims.  I think it is their obligation.

This chap has it mostly right:

"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims... We cannot tolerate in our midst those who abduct journalists, murder civilians, explode buses; we cannot accept them as related to us, whatever the sufferings they claim to justify their criminal deeds. These are the people who have smeared Islam and stained its image. We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women." (Abdel Rahman al-Rashed "Innocent religion is now a message of hate." Telegraph. 05/09/2004)

[ Parent ]

For the most part I agree with that sentiment by lm (2.00 / 0) #12 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 08:22:53 PM EST
But let's say that a high profile Muslim cleric did condemn terror on the part of some violent group. Who would report it?

The answer, unfortunately, is nowhere significant.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Mostly because the Moors were driven out of Spain by lm (4.00 / 2) #10 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 06:23:02 PM EST
Prior to that there were plenty of converts to Islam in the west. Also, this discounts large parts of the Mediterranean that are usually considered to be `western' for other purposes. To be fair, this double standard isn't restricted to Islam. The philosophy of ancient Greece is considered `western philosophy' but the the religion of medieval Greece (Eastern Orthodoxy) is usually considered eastern.

As for your other point, read more history. The tenth century caliphate was remarkably liberal with regards to intellectual discourse. Unfortunately the disciples of Ibn Sina and al-Farabi lost  to the argument al-Ghazali presented in The Incoherence of the Philosophers. Not even Ibn Rush'd in his Incoherence of the Incoherence could save the day.

But don't believe me, look at history. The world's largest predominatly Muslim nation is Indonesian. While there are certainly some extremists there, it doesn't amount to much considering that almost 90% of the residents are Muslim. 60% of Malaysians are Muslims. Again, there is very little Islamic extremism. While Islam is in the minority in China, there are probably more Muslims in China than in any other country save for Indonesia and Pakistan. Again, there is little extremism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Islam. I just don't think it's a necessarily violent religion. Most, not all, of the inherent violence comes from cultural sources that simultaneously arose with Islam rather than from Islam itself. And, the record of Islamic thinkers shows that there are ways to reconcile Islam with a moderate ideology.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

for a contrary view by R343L (4.00 / 3) #13 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 11:01:55 PM EST
Have you read Reza Aslan's No god but God? It goes into the problem of interpretation and what is a perfectly reasonable democratic impulse that can be found in the Koran (and thus could support a modern democratic state and not necessarily a theocratic one). The political interpretation of the Koran can be used to support a theocracy, but also a democratic state.

What is actually in the Koran is IMO not any more repulsive than much of the Bible (stoning of adulterers, homoesexuals and witches for example). The problem comes with some variants of Islam is the interpretation and emphasis on the sayings and practices of Muhammed (in many cases recorded well after his death). Often they have near the weight in practice as the Koran itself. And some of those practices are merely regional Arab culture of the time.

I'm not saying it's all flowers and puppies, but I think much of the "scary Islam" stuff is actually too much attention paid to the more radical interpretations (which admittedly have a lot of weight, primarily due to Saudi Arabia).

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot
[ Parent ]

The Koran stipulates how long your pubes may be. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #14 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 02:27:22 AM EST
That's pretty fucking scary, if you ask me, because I don't remember that bit from Methodist Sunday School.

This coomenat has be n soidnsord by hurricanbe ice malt liqur
[ Parent ]

I believe that is in a sunnah by R343L (4.00 / 1) #15 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 03:05:27 AM EST
That is, it's not in the Koran (and thus in my mind something that re-opening the gates of itjihad could allow to be removed from practice). I believe the Koran does mention cleanliness in general but that's hardly scary.

And some how even if it was in the Koran itself, I can't seem to care. There's stuff in Leviticus to require not shaving beards at all. I don't see how an injunction to shave certain hair to please God is any different than an injunction not to shave to please God.

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot
[ Parent ]

I want God to stay out of my Underoos. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #18 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 09:01:09 AM EST
I'm already pissed that they chopped off the tip of my wang for Him.

This coomenat has be n soidnsord by hurricanbe ice malt liqur
[ Parent ]

on the precipice by MillMan (4.00 / 1) #16 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 03:45:02 AM EST
The "naughty Muslims" have oil and nothing else. They don't have a long term future.

When I'm imprisoned as an enemy combatant, will you blog about it?
[ Parent ]

just a hobby by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #17 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 07:54:30 AM EST
I worked for a company that was, essentially, jjust that. The owner wanted to prove a point. If he hadn't crashed his airplane the company would've gone under.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)


Living in the west by duxup (2.00 / 0) #19 Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:29:34 AM EST
Regardless if you like western culture or think you fit in I think there are some environmental conditions there that making living in the west preferable regardless of what you think of the people governments there.  Thinks like financial opportunities, people not killing each other in large numbers each day, or the lack of a threat of people killing each other in large numbers each day.   

I recall some documentary about Al Jazeera TV and they were interviewing a worker.  He noted how he believed the TV station was important and he was proud to work there and such.  Then he paused and noted that if he had an offer to go work for Fox News in the states he'd take without a second thought.
____


Breaking up the monotony | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

Powered by Scoop   
 
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments and Stories are owned by the Poster and Licensed to "Hulver's site". See our Copyright page for more information.
faq | help | accounts