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By lm (Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 09:59:35 AM EST) (all tags)
Say 'Yes' to Prop. 111 illustrates everything that is wrong with the citizen's initiative.

The Clinton/Diebold conspiracy troll gets not one but two front page responses on dkos.

some stuff in the cellar.

What follows will be ultracrepidastic relections on the above.



Say 'Yes' to Prop. 111

I'm a big fan of some of the populist tools available in modern representative democracies. I really like the recall and the referendum. The former is a tool to prematurely remove an elected official from public office. The latter is a tool to revoke legislation passed by the legislative body. I think they are important corrective tools to have in a society governed by representatives of the people. One tool I can't stand, however, is the initiative by which legislation goes directly to the ballot box rather than through the legislature.

My problem with this is that it allows both politicians and voters to pass the buck. If an elected legislator isn't adequately representing the people, the people should hold that official accountable and, perhaps, vote him or her out of office. Legislators should not be given the option of saying something `I think I'm unqualified to vote on this legislation, it needs to go to the ballot box.''

Clinton/Diebold conspiracy troll

This conspiracy theory is so absurd it makes me laugh. The premise is that machine tabulation was to count the votes in all the precincts won by Hillary Clinton in the New Hampshire primary while hand counts were used by all the precincts won by Barrack Obama. The discrepancy between the polls and the outcome, these folks argue, is because the Diebold produced tabulators were hacked in favor of Clinton.

That's absurd.

The serious problem this theory creates, though, is that it will now be used to argue that the opponents of electronic voting are utterly out in left field. Sometimes the most emotionally convincing argument against an idea is the lunacy of the supporters of that idea. The Clinton/Diebold conspiracy provides exactly that ammunition at a time when valid complaints about the weaknesses in current electronic voting systems are finally beginning to get a bit of traction.

Stuff in the cellar

One of the most important things I learned while working on my degree in philosophy at XU was that when reading an argument, one should give it the benefit of the doubt and if there is more than one possible interpretation use the one that makes the argument the strongest. The idea is that if you're going to critically analyze an argument, you want to deal with that argument at its best. Critically analyzing the argument at its weakest doesn't buy you much.

And to be fair, this is something I fail to do quite frequently, especially in various online forums. That it is a failure of mine is probably why it torques me off to no end when I see other people do it. I think there is quite a bit of truth in the old adage that what we hate in ourselves is what we hate the most in others.

But my failings aside, the world would be a bit nicer of a place if more often we would take more time to try to understand what others are actually saying rather than going off half-cocked.

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Things that make me laugh | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Might be time by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #1 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:22:36 AM EST
for another politics troll.  As I mentioned in a comment to that cellared article, arguments over politics are one of the things that killed K5.  So I'll try to remember to clearly label any political diary of mine as 'troll' so that we won't take ourselves too seriously in them.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)



That's an interesting view by lm (4.00 / 1) #4 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:51:51 AM EST
K5 started pretty much as /. + politics. I think politics had less to do with its decline than a single admin getting overloaded with regards to policing the crap.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

I saw it as /.+intelligence by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #5 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 11:58:44 AM EST
The story that got the secret service's attention, for example, would never have made it on slashdot.  Certainly the sensible and smart commentary wouldn't have. 

Sad to say, it wouldn't make it over at K5 today. 

Politics got the trolls foaming at the mouth.
Got the True Believers foaming too.  So unless you were cts or trhurler (R.I.P.) (both of whom enjoyed arguing with the left-whackos), it was less fun.  All the rustina/horsecock/etc. stuff came later,  after the best diarists (Abooey, Blixco, etc.) had left in disgust over the rampant trolling. 

I don't think Rusty got overloaded, I think he didn't care. 

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

that's kind of what I meant by overloaded by lm (2.00 / 0) #7 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:36:57 PM EST
He was loaded up past what he was willing to carry. Whether this was because he was unable to carry the load or just didn't care doesn't really concern me. Whatever the reason may be, he was practically begged to distribute the burden among multiple admins and consistently refused to do so.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

he eventually did by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #8 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:13:50 PM EST
but by then it was arguably past the point where it mattered.

If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]

That kind of pissed me off by lm (2.00 / 0) #15 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 06:13:46 PM EST
Happens to other users: who cares?

Happens to me: site is locked down, hard!

Collaborative media, indeed.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

That is exactly the reason I left K5 by FlightTest (2.00 / 0) #19 Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:21:06 AM EST
pure hypocrisy.

[ Parent ]

The story that got the attention of the SS by lm (2.00 / 0) #14 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 06:11:57 PM EST
That was a political story. It was about the proper response to a biological attack on the VP of the US.

Maybe by `political' you mean `ideological'? I'd agree that the political articles closer to when I stopped paying attention to k5 were more ideological. But FFS, I think the first article I ever submitted to the queue (and got voted to section) was not only chock full of grammatical and spelling mistakes but was about Libya's  Qadaffi asking what it means to be a terrorist.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

hmm. by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #10 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:15:18 PM EST
i talk about politics all the time, and i don't think it's killed husi ...

If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]

Well, we don't get all froth-at-the-mouth by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #12 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 03:05:30 PM EST
about it. Because we saw what happened to K5. Also, we have fascist editors who don't hesitate to Hole stories.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

true. by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #13 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 03:08:48 PM EST
YHB by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #2 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:37:21 AM EST
T.



quite possibly by lm (2.00 / 0) #3 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 10:47:29 AM EST
There are also other  possibilities.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Diebold's on Slashdot, too by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #6 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:35:23 PM EST
is there no end to the trouble Ohio has brought this country?




initiatives by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #9 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:14:19 PM EST
If an elected legislator isn't adequately representing the people, the people should hold that official accountable and, perhaps, vote him or her out of office.

In my state, this is next to impossible to do: the electoral districts are gerrymandered so as to be safe seats, and the number of voters per legislator is enormous, meaning there's no real contact between the public and the legislators.

Legislators should not be given the option of saying something `I think I'm unqualified to vote on this legislation, it needs to go to the ballot box.''

I agree with that. But the initiative provides a safety valve so that citizens who really want something which the legislature would never do -- either because it's against the self-interest of the legislators (eg, fixing redistricting) or because it's against the interest of the people who run the campaigns of the legislature (eg, regulating railroad rates) -- can take control and make it happen.

It's horribly abused in many cases. But not having it at all would be worse.

The Clinton/Diebold conspiracy provides exactly that ammunition at a time when valid complaints about the weaknesses in current electronic voting systems are finally beginning to get a bit of traction.

a true conspiracy theorist would say that this is an intended result.


If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.


I'll never be a true conspiracy theorist by lm (2.00 / 0) #11 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:41:22 PM EST
I'm willing to accept that sometimes life is just weird.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

also by dev trash (2.00 / 0) #16 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 08:14:00 PM EST
Hillary didn't really win NH.  She tied.  Both got 9 delegates.  Sure she won an intangible victory but it's still a dead heat.

--
Click


Depends on what you mean by `won' by lm (2.00 / 0) #17 Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 08:25:26 PM EST
At this stage in the game the popular vote, and the accompanying mindshare, determines the winner. HRC is the winner because she got the results framed in her terms. The headlines read that she 'upset' the front runner.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

How would anyone believe by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #18 Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:41:38 AM EST
that only Diebold can monkey with their machines? By now, every political op had better know 33252 different ways to change the output of a Diebold machine or go looking for real work.

Wumpus



Things that make me laugh | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback