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By Herring (Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 02:17:21 AM EST) (all tags)
stuff, stuff

I said I was going to stop doing that.



We appear to have some weather. Since they (radio & TV news) have been predicting snow only since Tuesday, it would be too much to expect the authorities to get organized and salt/grit the roads.

Both SB's and SD's schools are closed today. Didn't find out about SB's until just before I was going to take him. So we are at home. Yes, we have built a snowman because you have to really.

Snow in the dish means no Sky and the really irritating feature of Sky+ is that it wont play back recorded programmes when there is no signal. Bastards. I do not feel inclined to climb up and clear the dish though. It should melt during the day.

Trying to wangle today as working from home rather than holiday. I have done as much work already as I would've done all day at the office (i.e. sent a couple of e-mails). Not sure if that counts though.

Update: Sky's working now. That's handy as it means I don't have to actually interact with SB - the TV can do the parenting. It's traditional.

Reading various medical blogs, you will always get some comment saying, basically "Scrap the NHS, got to a US-style system, let people take care of themselves". It's one view, certainly. Then you read that, per head, the US spends twice as much on healthcare as the UK does. Then you find out that 30% of that cost is administration, billing etc. I know a bit about insurance and I can see that there's some more work in an insurance-based system than in one where you just pay for stuff. Not that much more though. What I reckon (although I have no proof) is that a substantial amount of the administrative effort in healh insurance goes on not paying for treatment.

I think it's down to motivation. The motivation for a private health insurer is not treating people, it's making a profit. 30% of your turnover might sound a lot, but if it saves paying out 50% of claims, then it's worth it. People who sell mortgage protection, mobile phone cover or any other sort of insurance know this.

The targets and psuedo "market pressures" put on the NHS seem to have a similar distorting effect. For example, the A&E waiting times. The motivation is no longer treating the cases by priority, but making sure that someone is "dealt with" within the 4 hours, regardless of whether they've got a sprained ankle or a serious head injury. Financial pressures also distort: it's cheaper for a hospital to pay a manager to work out ways not to treat people than it is to pay a doctor to treat them.

I'm sure those of us who work in IT have seen the badly designed target before. For instance, at Crap Corp they were aiming for, on the helpdesk, a 50% fix-on-the-phone rate. The easiest way o hit this is to, whenever someone phones with "Windows has frozen on me" to advise them to reboot, then close the call. If it happens to them 10 times a day, then your stats look even better.

From what I see, things like the subbing out of routine operations to private treatment centres are also fucked. There is incentive to do, say, a hip replacemen cheaply but if it goes wrong, there's no comeback. The NHS has to pay again to get it fixed. Crappy contract. (Even worse are the ones where they pay a private centre to do n operations, but because nobody wants to go there they only do a fraction of the number but still get paid.)

Assuming that there have to be some measurements of NHS performance, it's hard to come up with ones that wont distort what's done. If, instead of chopping up the NHS into PCTs, hospital trusts or whatever, there was just a "regional health body", you could possibly try something like: premature deaths/days incapacity. The idea being that the only target is to reduce illness. I fear though that this would then distort what counts as "illness".

Anyway, I'm sure I had some sort of a point, but I can't remember what it was.

< 2007.02.07: like ... whatever? | BBC White season: 'Rivers of Blood' >
Must be stuff, | 44 comments (44 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Those who want a US-style healthcare system... by toxicfur (4.00 / 3) #1 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 02:27:50 AM EST
have never been poor and living in the US. My mom, when she was first diagnosed with cancer, had recently had her health insurance canceled since she was not working due to a work-related injury. She was in the hospital with congestive heart failure when she was diagnosed, and ran up enormous bills. She was finally approved for medicaid (for low-income people), but she still had a $9,000 deductible *every 6 months*. On top of that, she could have no more than $2000 in cash (checking and savings) at any one time. Fortunately, she never had anybody refuse to treat her based on her inability to pay, but I sometimes wondered if she had kick-ass insurance, maybe she would have had more aggressive treatment.

That's the anecdotal evidence. On an epidemiological level, the US pays far more per capita than any other industrialized country, and yet the major markers for health are quite a bit less than many other industrial countries (healthy years of life, infant mortality, etc.). For all other countries (including developing countries), there is a positive correlation between amount per capita spent on health care and those health markers.
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inspiritation: the effect of irritating someone so much it inspires them to do something about it. --BuggEye


I hear quite a few stories like that by Herring (2.00 / 0) #3 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 02:45:35 AM EST
It's not nice. Is it right that the majority of personal backruptcies in the US are due to medical bills?

The other ineffeciency I hear about is people with no coverage going to A&E (sorry, ER) where they can get treated. Not only is this much more expensive that a reular doctor's appointment, but it means people are just going to be patched up and thrown out, only to return a few weeks later. People with low or no coverage end up costing more because they don't get preventative treatment or they don't get problems actially fixed.

[ Parent ]

ER treatment does happen a lot. by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #12 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 04:20:06 AM EST
When I was waiting tables and teaching part time, I had no health insurance and I got a terrible sinus infection. I asked my students, since I was relatively new to town, where I could go to get cheap treatment. The ER was their answer, since they couldn't refuse to treat me, and if I didn't pay the bill, they could report it to credit agencies, but not much else. I ended up getting some hard core decongestants from one of my co-workers and living through it.
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inspiritation: the effect of irritating someone so much it inspires them to do something about it. --BuggEye
[ Parent ]

True by ad hoc (4.00 / 1) #15 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 05:29:24 AM EST
One thing I don't understand by Herring (2.00 / 0) #17 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 05:49:52 AM EST
Employer pays large sum in insurance premiums
Person gets ill
Person has to take time off being ill
Person isn't covered while off

So, in other words, the (very costly) insurance doesn't cover you when you're ill. Doesn't seem like a good deal.

A few of the democratic presidental possibles seem to be harping on about universal health coverage. The thing is, I can't see the US breaking away from an insurance based system. This is always going to be less effecient than a more European model (for reasons I tried to get across above). But doubtless, given the size of the industry, they have very powerful contacts.

[ Parent ]

Not exactly by ad hoc (4.00 / 2) #19 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:14:41 AM EST
Taking time off does not mean you are no longer employed, so you are still covered. A company cannot fire you for being ill (at least in the short term). They don't have to pay you, though. 

There is also short term and long term disability. Short term is usually included in your benefits package (at least for white collar workers). This typically kicks in from when your vacation and sick leave time is used up (or some other pre-defined period) until six months out of work. This is usually employer paid.

After that, long term disability kicks in. This coverage is optional and paid by the employee (if he/she wants it). This pays your salary from six months until retirement age (assuming you never get back to work). You would need to pay health insurance premiums from this amount.

Then there is worker's compensation insurance. This is state run and paid by the employer. It pays your wages and injury-specific health claims in the case where you're injured on the job.

There is also COBRA (Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act). This allows you to keep your health insurance you had at a former employer (regardless of why you left) for up to 18 months after leaving. You must pay the premium + 3%, but you cannot be denied. When I first went independent, I took advantage of this because the premiums at Megacorp were much lower than I could have gotten on my own, even with the 3% administration fee tacked on.

SO, no just being out of work doesn't necessarily mean you're no longer covered. It depends on what time period, why you're not working, &c.
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Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together
[ Parent ]

From the article by Herring (2.00 / 0) #21 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:18:57 AM EST
In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most.

Admittedly, they didn't put a number on "many". That's what got me anyway.

[ Parent ]

It also depends by ad hoc (4.00 / 1) #22 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:23:38 AM EST
on what state you live in and the type of job you do. I was talking specifically about white collar salaried jobs. Rules are different for blue collar hourly wage jobs. For a wage job, no work means no pay. How insurance plays in on that depends a bit on what state you're in, but if premiums are paid out of your paycheck, and you get no paycheck, then no premiums would be paid, and your coverage would lapse.

But there's always COBRA. Granted, it's not employer paid and may not be very affordable, but it's there. 
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Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together
[ Parent ]

We are currently under COBRA by cam (2.00 / 0) #23 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:25:01 AM EST
Part time labor by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #26 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:57:29 AM EST
Another thing to consider is that is that companies typically don't offer health plans to part-time employees. In the US, the poorer people are often stuck with part-time jobs, often taking more than one to make ends meet. Companies that hire a lot of low-skilled employees (most famously, WalMart) often deliberately limit hours of their workers to avoid going above levels where they'd have to offer insurance.

What makes this more insidious is that employer offered plans are tax-free while privately purchased plans are not. This, coupled with insurance companies offering "group plans" at lower rates than individual ones means that the cost of insurance for a private individual can be twice what it'd cost their employer. The end result is that a middle-class salaried employee pays much less than than a poor part-time worker. But then, this is just yet another case where in the US the poor pay more than the rich.

In my mind, "national health care" isn't necessarily the answer...it might be...might not. Part of the problem is that as far as private insurance systems go, the US system is horrible. Plenty of countries do it better.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]

the ER situation is pretty bad by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #35 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 09:56:48 AM EST
even if you have insurance.

if you're having an actual emergency, but not one where you're immediately dying, you can spend all night in the ER just waiting to be treated due to the quantity of people there.  (4 hours in the waiting room with my ex before he ever saw a clinician when he had a fever of 103 and his neck was so swollen he no longer had a visible jaw)

also, some hospital systems have decided to turn away people for all preventative care (because yes, some people go to the ER for preventative care since they have no insurance). 

it's all a mess.

[ Parent ]

I don't understand by Cloaked User (4.00 / 1) #25 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:29:21 AM EST
Let me see if I have this right: in order to qualify for medicaid, she had to have less than $2000 in savings. However, even with medicaid, she (effectively) had a 6-monthly bill for $9000.

How was she supposed to pay that, given that she's not allowed to have more than a small fraction of that amount available at any one time? Or am I misunderstanding "deductible"?


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.
[ Parent ]

No, you've got it right. by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #28 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 07:17:00 AM EST
It seems to be a system designed to prevent the government to ever have to pay out money. Or something. Fortunately, she finally (after jumping through numerous hoops and hiring a lawyer) was approved for Social Security Disability, which means  that she qualifies for Medicare. Medicare has no income limitations or deductible, though she also has to pay for independent Medicare supplemental insurance and prescription drug insurance. With her illness, she's saving a great deal of money that way, but it's still a pretty huge chunk of change that she pays out.
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inspiritation: the effect of irritating someone so much it inspires them to do something about it. --BuggEye
[ Parent ]

Medicaid is a need based program by lm (2.00 / 0) #30 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 07:58:03 AM EST
There are two federal programs in the US, Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare is designed to provide medical care for those who are to old to work (retired) or who have retired on disability (still retired). There is no means testing, so anyone who has paid into the system (by working and having FICA contributions taken out of their salary) is covered once they either pass retirement age or are permanently disabled and qualify for social security.

Additionally, there is Medicaid which is a program designed to help those who are in destitution and, therefore, cannot afford medical care. To qualify for Medicaid you have to be destitute. Consequently, you've got sick people who aren't destitute spending themselves into destitution so that they qualify for Medicaid. This happens most frequently for retired people who are not well off because Medicare doesn't cover everything. If an elderly person needs regular home nursing or to be institutionalized, they have to spend themselves into desitution so that they can qualify for Medicaid.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

But that's my point by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #36 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 10:46:20 AM EST
In this case, in order to be eligible for Medicaid, she had to be unable to afford the treatment even with Medicaid, and by a very sizeable margin.

I simply don't understand how that's supposed to work, or how it ever got approved. (Other than as a deliberate ploy to prevent the government from having to pay out)


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.
[ Parent ]

It's a historical thing by lm (2.00 / 0) #38 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 10:57:10 AM EST
The original intent was to provide health care to the destitute at a time when health care was far more affordable. As a last resort program for the truly poor, it functions relatively well.

But it just so happens that health care costs have skyrocketed and the means test hasn't kept up with inflation, let alone the increase in health care costs. So it's more of a case of decent program that suffers from neglect than it is a case of a poorly conceived program.

Also, you're assuming that most medical bills get paid on a cash basis. They don't. Most treatment centers will take payments over time.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

not just poor.... by StackyMcRacky (2.00 / 0) #34 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 09:49:51 AM EST
my dad's former company decided to re-vamp their program for retiree's, and now my mother will be dropped from the insurance.  my parents are middle to upper-middle class, so there's no way they would ever qualify for any kind of reduced rate insurance.  while my mom is pretty damn healthy for her age, she is in her 60s and things could change quickly.  Just because she qualifies for a reasonable private insurance rate now doesn't mean she will in 2 years.

they're going to have to drop a nice chunk o' change to get my mother on insurance.  while they have a reasonable amount of money for retirement, healthcare will eat into it moreso than any other expense they have.

it just isn't pleasant.

note: i'm not a big fan of government sponsored heathcare.  i think the system we have now is crap, but i think going socialized will be crap as well.  i have no answers.

[ Parent ]

Maths is wrong! by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #2 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 02:35:27 AM EST

budget < (budget - profit), damnit.

When will you whining lefty pinkos learn this? You'll be clamouring for "evidence-based" medicine next.


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Vacuity abhors a vacuum.


Well-written argument for the NHS that by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #4 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 02:52:51 AM EST
+1FP

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It's political correctness gone mad!


Thanks by Herring (4.00 / 3) #8 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 03:45:54 AM EST
I was thinking of doing a proper article, but I jsut started spewing words out here instead.

Actually, I think it goes further than the health service. You get terrible situations with the old and infirm: neither hospitals nor local authorities want to pay for care. Rather than saying "bollocks, it's all taxpayers' money and someone has to look after them" they end up fighting over it with people caught in the middle.

There's a general lack of joined up thinking. I drive to work most days now because they started charging for the car park by the station so car park + train ticket is more expensive than car park the other end. I am now part of the traffic problem.

[ Parent ]

Ooh just seen this by nebbish (4.00 / 3) #13 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 05:01:24 AM EST
"It is time to admit that the employer-based health care system is dead — a relic of the industrial economy."

The writing style's more than a bit overblown but it's another angle.

Not strictly on-topic but this piece in today's Grauniad is the best piece of writing on social policy I've seen in ages. She writes with the clarity and patience of someone who's spent a lifetime dealing with powerful idiots.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

One extra point about ITCs by Metatone (2.00 / 0) #5 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 03:20:00 AM EST
Independent Treatment Centres....

They turn down the hard cases, because they "don't have the backup facilities in case something goes wrong" as a result, average price of (say) an NHS hip operation goes up because the ITCs do the cheap ones and the NHS gets the hard ones.

Some moron economics writer at The Sunday Times then stirs up the whole media about a decline in productivity for hip replacements in the NHS. Durrrr....

The worst bit is that there is no controversy at all about the fact that for a working market you need low entry/exit barriers and no great information asymmetries.

One day this might be true in the health sector, but not for the foreseeable future. Thus any system is going to involve serious government regulation. And yet... somehow people still keep advocating it...



Another point by Herring (2.00 / 0) #6 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 03:40:59 AM EST
ITCs don't train doctors. If ITCs are doing all the "easy" hip replacements, then how does a doctor learn to do them? (You may answer "abroad" here.)

[ Parent ]

Bzzzzt... by Metatone (2.00 / 0) #9 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 03:51:36 AM EST
Doctors from abroad are being sent back, not enough posts for them. Training is just an expense, everyone knows that.

[ Parent ]

+1 for days-incapacity target by priestess (2.00 / 0) #7 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 03:44:10 AM EST
I like that, judge the hospitals on how much dying and sickness the people living nearby have. Course, then they'd be desperately trying for local sin-taxes on fatty burgers and non-excercise and the hospitals may end up looking like Gyms.

Hey ho.

Pre........
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Chat to the virtual me...


Well, by Herring (4.00 / 1) #10 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 03:54:34 AM EST
there's something to be said for having a health service rather than a sickness service.

[ Parent ]

Private Care by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #11 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 04:13:58 AM EST
One thing to remember in private care systems is the profit margin.  Most American companies are being pushed to double digit profits every year by Wall Street.  So they charge more or cut back on services to meet that goal.  In the system you have insurance companies, hospitals, drug companies, and medical supply companies all passing along profit margins to the consumer.  And let's face it, the days of companies absorbing a price spike and lowering profits are gone. 



Yep by Herring (4.00 / 1) #14 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 05:08:26 AM EST
I was kind of ignoring that because it's a given.

It would be interesting to compare UK vs US health spending on actual treatment. Factor in marketing, profits and excessive admin in the US and it could be that the actual spending is fairly similar.

We are doing our best to catch up on the bureaucracy though.

[ Parent ]

The thing is by R Mutt (4.00 / 2) #16 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 05:43:20 AM EST
The US has the world's most fucked up private system, and the UK has the world's most fucked up state system.

Comparing the two is a bit like saying "Best leader: Pol Pot or Caligula?"

[ Parent ]

I still think by Herring (2.00 / 0) #18 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 05:53:33 AM EST
that a lot of the recent problems with the NHS are caused by the pseudo market principles and stupid targets.

I'd quite like to expand on what I think might be better than what we have. But that would mean thinking.

[ Parent ]

Undoubtedly by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #20 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:18:53 AM EST
The pseudo-market and targets have not worked very well: they've pumped in vast amounts of money and got only modest improvements, though they've raised salaries a lot.

The question is how they could have done it better.

Now NHS Blog Doctor and the other pro healthcare bloggers basically say, "Well, the problem is all these controls you tried to put on the money. If you'd just shovelled all the cash into the existing system, we wouldn't have sucked it all up into our salaries, we'd have conscientiously put it all into improved patient care."

That may be true, but I'm pretty skeptical. True, the controls haven't worked. But I suspect that without the controls things would have gone much the same way.

[ Parent ]

I think that the targets are wrong by Herring (2.00 / 0) #24 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 06:28:24 AM EST
Hence my helpdesk example. A cruder, but possibly better measure of an IT departments effectiveness is: how many problems are there in the first place? OK, you can frig that target by making the bug report/enhancement request process into a Karfa-esque nightmare, but it could work.

I think you do need some sort of measurement in the NHS, otherwise I agree - pumping in money doesn't really help. (A side note: 75% of the NHS costs are salaries so when a substantial proportion of budget increases go on salaries, this shouldn't be a surprise.) What I'm thinking is that, rather than measuring the number of problems you've solved, you measure the number of problems (sickness severity - time) that there are and aim to reduce that figure.

How you do that is he tricky part.

[ Parent ]

Targets by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #27 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 07:08:55 AM EST
I don't think any form of targets are going to work very well. Medicine is just too vastly complicated for it to work. There are too many specialists who are always going to be able to out-target-manipulate any non-specialist who tries to set their targets. There are too many grey areas, too many fuzzy decisions, too many cases where it takes years of experience to make a decision.

It's just not like an IT helpdesk, unless your helpdesk has a million people doing ten thousand differnet specialist jobs.

I think basically you have to go one of two ways.

You can decentralize the whole thing. Privatize everything, but pay everyone's insurance premiums up to the current NHS spending level. Let people swap insuranace companies, doctors and hospitals and let the market sort out the totally useless.

Or, go the command and control route. Have a big hierarchy, where one person is clearly responsible for an area. Promote people up through the hierarchy so they have a clue about the area they're managing. If you've got an ex-ambulanceman running the ambulance service he'll at least have a chance of knowing when he's being bullshitted.

I think it's a total illusion that you can have a single organization of a million people and have it work efficiently in a trendy decentralized target-driven manner.

[ Parent ]

Ah, d'ya mean by Dr Thrustgood (4.00 / 2) #29 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 07:36:37 AM EST
How the cops were before they were crap?

i.e. copper starts out on the street, bang, few years later he's a commander type thing?



[ Parent ]

Yes by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #33 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 09:45:22 AM EST
The NHS just has so many complicated specialisms, I think you need specialist knowledge: you can't just hire a bunch of supermarket managers because they're "good at managing".

[ Parent ]

I think a hybrid model makes the most sense by lm (2.00 / 0) #31 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 08:12:08 AM EST
The best approach would be to identify those aspects of health care that most closely resemble commodities in an efficient market (for example the production of generic pharmaceuticals and most preventative care such as cholesterol screenings) and create a market environment for those things while keeping aspects of the health care industry that markets are demonstrably inefficient at as centralized industries. Where it is arguable as to which most closely represents a given segment of the industry, pilot trials can be run in different areas and the numbers compared at given intervals.

Another option would be to study how good various countries do at providing health care and plot a chart of bang for buck and make a model based on the already existing way that gets the most bang out of the buck you're willing to spend.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Aargh by R Mutt (4.00 / 1) #32 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 09:04:04 AM EST
Well up to a point that's true. Even in the NHS, for instance, you don't have an NHS garment factory stitching nurse's uniforms together.

With medical services though, you tend to get a problem that's slightly similar to software, in that quality is almost infinitely malleable, and rather difficult to measure while you're producing it.

With cholesterol screenings: who is paying the cholesterol screeners and why do they care about getting the most quality per buck? Is it GPs, hospitals, individuals, healthcare trusts, insurers?

If you have a total market system; whoever they are, they have competitors, they'll go bust if they do it too badly, so they have incentives.

With an all-state system, you at least have some accountability: the Chief Cholesterol Screener works for you, you can sack him if he's doing a bad job.

If you have a mixed system, the purchaser is eventually an arm of the government; who ultimately will pay for whatever deal you make, and aren't going to let you go bust.

That's basically what the NHS reforms have done in the last ten years or so. You have "Primary Care Trusts" who in theory buy-in services in real markets and pseudo-markets; with government targets to make sure they do things properly. And it's basically been a disaster. They manipulate things to always hit the targets but provide shitty quality, and go over-budget with impunity.

With an all-state system, you at least have some accountability since you can sack the Chief Cholesterol Screener if he's doing a bad job. With a market system, the market will eventually drive him out of business. With a mixed system: it's fucked and you can't do anything about it. You can't even sack your PCT boss just for buying crappy cholesterol-screening services, since they're only a tiny part of his job. You just have these huge chains of contractors with no-one really responsible.

(Sorry, hastily written comment)

[ Parent ]

I'm not sure I follow your argument by lm (2.00 / 0) #37 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 10:49:30 AM EST
It's easy. Big Brother issues an annual voucher for a cholesterol screening. Consumer picks his or her provider and gets screened. Providers that deliver bad service lose customers and go broke.

Or better yet, do away with the vouchers entirely. Consumer goes to provider. Provider submits bill to Big Brother. Big Brother checks records and pays the bill if done on schedule and otherwise rejects the bill and provider bills consumer. Providers that deliver bad service lose customers and go broke.

In cases where the service is a commodity, this is pretty straightforward. Even the US has been able to implement similar programs with relative competency. A charity program for pregnant women and children works in a very similar fashion. Mom (or Mom-to-be) gets coupons once a week for milk, juice, vegetables, etc. She picks the grocer of her choosing and exchanges the coupons for groceries.

I'm not seeing where the fux0ring can happen where it wouldn't also happen in a pure government system or a pure free market system.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Indeed by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #39 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 11:24:22 AM EST
Providing the quality of the service is easy to determine, and the cost of providing it is constant, that could work very well. The commodity example is a pretty trivial case though. The problem with healthcare is that it's generally very complicated to do, and not much like a commodity at all.

Remember that what you have is a monopsony. The coupon passes through the hands of the consumer, you have only one real buyer setting the price: the government.

Consider a situation where quality and price vary. There is no incentive for the individual to shop around for a cheaper service. There is an incentive for him to find a better service. However, what incentive does the provider have to provide a better service, if he's getting paid the same? Well, maybe he's allowed to charge in addition to the voucher... but now you're getting right back to a situation where poor people get worse healthcare than the rich.

Basically, I don't think you can treat a significant proportion of healthcare as a commodity.

Incidentally, I recently heard the food stamps programme cited as an example of poor economics. He reckoned it would be far more efficient to just skip the bureaucracy and give the poor people the money.

[ Parent ]

I'm not talking about food stamps by lm (2.00 / 0) #40 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 11:56:33 AM EST
That's a different program and one that is well known for its administrative problems.

I differ with you on how much of health care lends itself to being a commodity. Generic drugs, most lab work, vision exams, preventative dental work, and a good deal of other things are pretty close to being commodities. And because they are commodities where the suppliers are interchangeable, the government can negotiate (not set) a price very close to the market equilibrium price would be in a pure market system.

Further, if you're arguing that having a set price is a disincentive to quality, then the same must hold of free markets as they approach perfect competition. As goods approach the market equilibrium price, the price becomes more and more stable and the profit margin begins to move towards zero percent. In either case, the producer can increase profit by maximizing output. Happy customers end up as repeat business. Unhappy customers dont' come back. Over time, more customers will gravitate to producers with a quality product and producers with poor quality will decrease in profitiability.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Yes by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #42 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 09:17:48 PM EST
But dentistry, most lab work, opticians ("optometry"), drug production, drug retail and so on are all already private in the UK. (Well, dentistry used to be NHS but is now almost entirely privatized: there are only a handful of NHS dentists left).

You're kind of stating the obvious that there are some functions which can be done better by the market. But they tend to already be being done by the market.

There's a big difference between a situation when a market with competition sets prices, and a monopsony where a single buyer effectively sets the price. A monopsony distorts the market in a similar way to a monopoly.

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There are indeed some NHS dentists left by Cloaked User (2.00 / 0) #43 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 11:52:17 PM EST
My dentist is NHS, and coincidentally enough is literally at the end of my road. I am aware of the horror stories in the news though, and quite how bad the situation appears to have become.


--
This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.
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"but they're dumb!" by garlic (4.00 / 1) #41 Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 12:03:44 PM EST
"they'll buy tvs and stereos with the money, and then not be able to eat! Or they're druggies! they'll buy booze and cigarettes or worse with it, and not be able to eat! we don't want our tax dollars buying drugs and tvs!"

Suck it
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It's a given by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #44 Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 07:30:13 AM EST
It should be a given, but a lot of people don't take it into consideration. 

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