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Boredom
By wiredog (Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 01:23:12 PM EST) (all tags)
Waiting for the tester to come back with the latest bug reports. Meanwhile...


The ass-covering is in full swing. "I was for it, then against it." "I'm sorry I was for it." Etc. ("It" being the authorization of the war in Iraq.) But not everybody. Hilary Clinton refuses to apologize for voting in favor of the war. Presumably she feels it was the correct decision. So she's being punished, by the left, for not being a hypocrite. This time, anyway.

From The New Republic (a center-left journal in the US), How I got the Iraq war wrong, by Peter Beinart. Beinart supported the war. In this piece he explains why he did, and why he was wrong to do so.

For myself, perhaps the most honest reply is this: because Kanan Makiya did.

When I first saw Makiya--the Iraqi exile who has devoted his life to chronicling Saddam Hussein's crimes--I recognized the type: gentle, disheveled, distracted, obsessed. ...

If the United States were a different country, and not merely motivated by oil, it could be trusted to expel Saddam from Kuwait. If the United States were a different country, one really concerned about human rights, it could be trusted to bomb Slobodan Miloševíc out of Bosnia and Kosovo. At some point during the 1990s, I began to see it as a trap. There were no other, purer methods and no other, purer country. At least, that was how the Kuwaitis and Bosnians and Kosovars and Afghans seemed to feel. ...

Makiya knew better; he knew that the United States had intervened more frequently in the Third World to quash democracy than to spread it. He knew that the Bush administration had other, darker motives. And yet, made desperate by Saddam's horrors and his resilience, he was willing to gamble.

I was willing to gamble, too--partly, I suppose, because, in the era of the all-volunteer military, I wasn't gambling with my own life. And partly because I didn't think I was gambling many of my countrymen's. I had come of age in that surreal period between Panama and Afghanistan, when the United States won wars easily and those wars benefited the people on whose soil they were fought. ...

"All the Iraqi democratic voices that still exist, all the leaders and potential leaders who still survive," wrote Salman Rushdie in November 2002, "are asking, even pleading for the proposed regime change. Will the American and European left make the mistake of being so eager to oppose Bush that they end up seeming to back Saddam Hussein?" [See this piece from The Guardian, in February of '03, for an expansion of that thought.]

I couldn't answer that then. It seemed irrefutable. But there was an answer... It begins with a painful realization about the United States: We can't be the country those Iraqis wanted us to be. We lack the wisdom and the virtue to remake the world through preventive war.


Pity I didn't see this yesterday, would have been a useful addition to the diary I wrote. From The Atlantic, Am I Being Too Rational? by James Fallows.
Starting late in 2004, I have been writing that the United States could not rationally contemplate attacking Iran ...Through that time I have been arguing with friends, adversaries, and people I do not know, all of whom keep saying: rational or not, it’s coming!...

But there is a deeper strangeness that I worry about at 2 a.m. Am I guilty of projecting my own assumptions about rationality onto the Administration?

Based on everything I have learned through reporting, or simply read and thought, an attack on Iran would be unique in modern American history — perhaps in the entirety of American history. American leaders have made a lot of mistakes in 200-plus years. (Plus made a lot of inspired, far-seeing decisions.) But they have rarely done things that were simply insane. ...

Launching a discretionary war against Iran would be insane. Every one of the elements of long-term American strength and self-interest would be jeopardized: Economic, grand-strategic, diplomatic, military, moral. There would be damage in the short run—stepped-up attacks in Iraq, chaos in the oil market—and worse damage for decades to come. ...

I have not quite believed that even an administration as guilty of misjudgments as this one would actually go ahead and start such a suicidal war. ... That is, I have thought that George Bush and Dick Cheney were as decent as Richard Nixon.

Also from The Atlantic, in Andrew Sullivan's blog

The small British withdrawal from Basra is not a watershed. Its minimal nature and indeterminate timing make it the least that Blair can still do to appease the overwhelming sense of public opinion in Britain, while not rupturing the alliance, or leaving irresponsibly. ...

What's more telling is how unpopular the war is in Britain, and how an entire generation of Brits have now grown up thinking of the United States as a bullying, torturing force for instability in the world. ... it is the image of America that Bush and Cheney have built ... In Italy, the government has fallen because there is no longer support for even a minimal presence in Afghanistan, let alone Iraq. ...

Once, for all the residual anti-Americanism out there, [soft power] was a significant plus for the U.S. Bush has somehow managed to give the U.S. a soft-power deficit - in a war against some of the most barbaric, evil enemies we have ever faced. That really is an achievement.


Some old comments of mine from K5, back in 2003, laying out my views on the war: Let the middle-east deal with its problems. ... Why go to war and remove [Saddam] with conventional weapons, when we have the nuclear deterrent to keep him from attacking us? See also this and this.
You don't hear much from the left these days about running third party candidates. You don't hear them saying "There are no differences between the Republicans and Democrats" either. I guess they finally accepted the fact that if Nader hadn't been running in 2000 then Al Gore would probably almost certainly have won in Florida. A President Gore wouldn't have invaded Iraq. So maybe the left is thinking a bit more strategically? Or maybe not. Let's wait a year or so, see who the Democrats nominate, and how the left reacts. The MoveOn/Kos/International ANSWER crowd could still help put a Republican in the White House for another 4 years.

I remember hearing someone on NPR, a couple years back, saying that if any of the Republican or Democratic candidates in 2000, other than Bush, had won the election, then the Iraq War wouldn't have happened.

The attacks of 9/11 certainly changed the world. Remember when people in Europe wanted the US to be more involved, and complained because Dubya was semi-isolationist? Be careful what you wish for...


Indifference will certainly be the downfall of mankind, but who cares? Bob Abooey.
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The indifference line. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #1 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 02:43:20 PM EST
I wonder who first made that joke?

The wording is a little quirky (why the curious "certainly" instead of the more straight-forward "indifference will be the end . . . "?) and seems to me to be the over-work that's indicative of a deliberately planned joke rather than an off the cuff statement.

Still, I can't find any source for it.

I can find a handful of dudes using it a signature as early as 2000, but nobody ever sources it. In fact, I've found only one guy who sources it to "Anon," with everybody else leaving the reader to wonder if they made it up or not.



i'm greatly disappointed in this country by alprazolam (4.00 / 1) #2 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:03:49 PM EST
I have no faith that we will ever undo the damage that Bush and his cronies have done.



It can be undone by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #6 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:30:22 PM EST
In time. Lots of time.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

Hillary is Flip-Flop Savvy by Bob Abooey (4.00 / 1) #3 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:14:48 PM EST
She's actually been saying the right stuff: "Given the information they presented to us I stand behind my vote. If I knew back then what I know today I would not have voted for it." Even if it's still crap it's the correct thing to say politically I believe.

She's smart enough not to fall into the "I voted for it before I voted against it" trap that The GOP'rs love to spin into the dreaded flip-flop attack they love so much.

Speaking of Flip Flop - The Dems are drafting an iRAqii War UNDO button. Sheesh. They might as well invent a WayBack Machine and have Mr. Peabody go back in time to fix this mess.

Warmest regards,
--Your best pal Bob


Do Over! I want a Do Over! by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #4 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:22:38 PM EST
So do the Iraqi people, I bet. Pity it can't be done over...

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

When the average Iraqi and American rates by georgeha (4.00 / 4) #5 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:29:00 PM EST
Saddam Hussein a better leader than Dubya, you really need that do over button.


[ Parent ]

For most of the pundits by cam (4.00 / 1) #7 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:31:26 PM EST
it was fashion, and they didn't want to be unfashionable. They also have a market to write to, and echo-chambering is more profitable than being contrarian. They were whoring, and they will continue to whore with whatever is popular. They entertain us, troll us, and make us indignant - they don't make policy.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic


They don't make policy by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #8 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:39:51 PM EST
But they do influence it, sometimes strongly. The National Review crowd and Daily Standard crowd certainly had (and have) an influence on Bush and Cheney. The New Republic crowd has an influence on many Democrats.

I don't think that, for the TNR group and for Hitchens, that it was "fashion" that led them to support the war (and leads Hitchens to continue, sort of, to support it). I think they really believed in it. I know the NRO crowd were True Believers.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

We found out about PNAC afterwards by cam (2.00 / 0) #9 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 03:49:45 PM EST
and the policy makers in PNAC were members of the US Executive in 2001 when it all came to a head. They have influence, but in most cases they are already writing into an echo-chamber, and many of them now openly co-ordinate with the message machines of the party executive, and the US executive.

They are amplifiers of existing policy (popular or not so popular but always known by executives) rather than policy makers.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

yesterday on NPR by MillMan (4.00 / 1) #10 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 04:08:49 PM EST
they had a random former general on who, apparently, has been vocally opposed to the Iraq war since before it began. He noted that "we know a lot from history about how liberal democracies come about, and it was clear that no such thing was going to occur in Iraq." That was the first time I had heard such a fundamental point in the MSM. The debate in the media didn't get beyond the analytical skills of an 8 year old.

Maybe this is an obvious point, but neither the media, the public, nor the political class are capable of making morally positive policy choices (as a whole in each case). I think that's true of all countries.

When I'm imprisoned as an enemy combatant, will you blog about it?


Cowardice by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #11 Fri Feb 23, 2007 at 04:15:00 PM EST
Many of them can't tell the truth, which is "I voted for the war because I was afraid that if I voted against it, my political career would be over". At least one major Democratic candidate falls in this category, but I will be nice and not name her explicitly.

Sadly, some of those who did have the guts to oppose the war when it was unpopular did see their political career plummet. People will remember that Howard Dean was a kook who made gaffes. They will forget that the biggest gaffe was "The world is no safer with Saddam in custody".

But I'll likely vote for someone who "flip-flopped" because we need to get anyone remotely involved in this fiasco out of office. This is not the time to vote third party. (Speaking as someone who has only voted major party twice in six elections.)
----
ウセーバラケダ


As I pointed out above by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #14 Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:04:56 AM EST
Hilary may have voted for the war because she thought it was necessary, which may be why she now refuses to apologize for the vote. You don't apologize for doing the right thing.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

Poll Response: by greyrat (2.00 / 0) #12 Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 11:48:28 AM EST
I voted 'More Involved'. But what I mean by that is 'More involved in a diplomatic, humanitarian and philanthropic way', not in a 'More involved because we're a big, fucking self-righteous, xenophobic, asshole, bully way'.
~
There is absolutely no correlation or causation amongst intelligence, power, talent and wealth.
Kha-Nyou


The left? by theboz (4.00 / 2) #13 Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 01:44:21 AM EST
So maybe the left is thinking a bit more strategically? Or maybe not. Let's wait a year or so, see who the Democrats nominate, and how the left reacts. The MoveOn/Kos/International ANSWER crowd could still help put a Republican in the White House for another 4 years.
MoveOn has gone Democrat, DailyKos bans people who are not partisan right-of-center Democrats, and ANSWER has no real influence. Here's what will happen:

MoveOn will support whoever gets nominated by the Democrats, and will hold bake sales to raise money for them and watch TV for a while.

Markos on Dailykos will support whichever Democrat gets picked in the primaries, unless it is Hillary Clinton, at which point he will start supporting John McCain and ban everyone from his site who isn't a Republican.

ANSWER will have a protest where millions of people attend, giving the LaRouche cult followers the idea that they can distribute their propaganda. The protesters get annoyed and don't vote at all since they are so confused by the LaRouche wackos.

On the other side, the Republicans fix the election in Ohio for the third time, and still lose because everyone else hates them.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n


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