Red Ken and offensive language
By squigs (Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 03:48:05 AM EST) (all tags)
Personally, I think this has been blown out of all proportion.  Everyone needs to be more thick skinned about insults.  Seriously - "sticks and stones...".

But something that's not been made clear, and has been bugging me since this story started.

Why did Ken Livingstone choose to call a journalist a "Nazi concentration camp guard"?

Taken by itself, as an insult, it's a pretty bizarre one.  What did he do that suggested this exactly?  As far as I know, Nazi concentration camp guards weren't known for following people around and interfering with their life.

The only explanation would be if the journalist said "I'm just doing my job".  Which it seems he did, then Ken was justifiied.  It is a crappy defence, which would show blatent hypocrisy from the journalist, trying to assign moral responsibility for his actions to someone higher up the chain.  A bit like the Nuremburg defence.  But if this is the case, why hasn't this context been provided?

Red Ken and offensive language | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Back story by jump the ladder (4.00 / 2) #1 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 03:58:55 AM EST
The Dail Mail, the sister paper of Evening Standard, used run editorials like "Hurrah for Mr Hitler" in the 1930s and Ken was implying that for Jewish journalist to work for the Daily Mail group was equivalent to jewish collabrator concentation camp guard when he found out the ES hack was jewish.

Bit extreme but dunno if it was enough to cause the suspension.

As well as your point by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #2 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 04:01:14 AM EST
There's long standing animosity between Ken and the Evening Standard. The Evening Standard is sister paper to the Daily Mail, which had fascist links in the 1930s (just how strong those links were is open to debate), and Ken has gleefully brought this up when attacking the Standard before - hence the Nazi jibe at one of their journalists.

Of course, none of the above disproves the fact that Ken should just grow up.

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He shouldn't lose the rag under pressure? by Rogerborg (4.00 / 1) #14 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 07:07:49 AM EST
Tsk tsk, and you're on record and all.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]
When I'm in high office by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #18 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 11:44:30 PM EST
I'll take an anger management course. Until then, I can say what I want really.

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[ Parent ]
Transcript is by Gully Foyle (4.00 / 2) #3 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 04:43:55 AM EST
Excusable if you're pissed, by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #4 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 04:47:06 AM EST
I guess.

[ Parent ]
Ah, I see... by squigs (4.00 / 1) #5 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 05:07:16 AM EST
So he complained about being compared to a Nazi war criminal and then used the "I'm, just doing my job" defence.

Okay. Clearly I'm still missing somethign entirely.

I sort of agree with this comment "To me this seems very incomplete - what was happening before this happened, where was it, was this the beginning of the conversation? Context, I feel, is needed.", but since the reporter gave his credentials at the start of the discussion, it seems liek that was where they started talking.  Still reads a little oddly.

And I still think everyone overreacted to the comment.

[ Parent ]
Well, I'm no fan of Ken... by Metatone (4.00 / 1) #7 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 05:33:16 AM EST
and I lean heavily towards:

Drunken comments by a rash sort who is then too politically stupid to apologise, turning the whole thing into a media event.

But, IIRC, at least part of the backstory is that this journalist and his paper have made a long practise about following Ken around his social life, asking awkward questions.

Now, you can argue that this is the lot of a person in the public eye, but equally I can't help but feel that if I'd been Mayor of London then the journo would not have eventually received verbal abuse for being so annoying, but probably a smack in the face.

Again, Ken is one of the most irritating men in the universe, so there's some pot, kettle, black side to that argument.

[ Parent ]
He has the basic huright to be an irritating twerp by squigs (4.00 / 1) #8 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 05:48:08 AM EST
at least part of the backstory is that this journalist and his paper have made a long practise about following Ken around his social life, asking awkward questions.

That's the sort of context I was talking about.  Makes a lot more sense, especiually if he already knew this journalist.

[ Parent ]
Politically stupid to apologise? by Rogerborg (4.00 / 2) #15 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 07:10:02 AM EST
You really think that would have kept the Jewslim Council of Great Britain off of his case, self appointed bunch of proactively offended fucknuts that they are?

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]
You've got to hand it to him by Cloaked User (4.00 / 2) #6 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 05:10:28 AM EST
It's nothing to do with you because your paper is a load of scumbags and reactionary bigots.

He doesn't mince words, does he?

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This is not a psychotic episode. It is a cleansing moment of clarity.

[ Parent ]
Nebbish's sig [nt] by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #9 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 06:10:55 AM EST

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Vacuity abhors a vacuum.
It can't be by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #10 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 06:27:26 AM EST
Political correctness can only be used against people on the right. Kenny Boy is a leftist, and therefore PC by ddefinition.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
Maybe in America by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #11 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 06:32:59 AM EST

In Soviet UKistan it's used against anyone who strays from the narrow centrist path, and most of those of don't, and animals ...

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Vacuity abhors a vacuum.
[ Parent ]
Randomness by DullTrev (4.00 / 1) #12 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 07:00:28 AM EST

The thing that gets me about this is all these politicians running around saying "Well, if he would just apologise and get it over with, everything will be fine." But, well, what if he doesn't actually think he did anything grossly offensive? I may disagree with him (though, considering the Evening Standard, I may not...) but if he doesn't think he was in the wrong, I'm glad he's not hypocritical enough to apologise because it's expedient to do so.

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DFJ?
Why hasn't the context been provided? by Rogerborg (2.00 / 0) #13 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 07:06:26 AM EST
Because the media are a bunch of scumbags and reactionary bigots?

Why would this be more offensive to an Angry Jew than to a shirt lifter, thieving gyppo or anyone else whose relatives were in concentration camps?  I don't buy into the Cult of Transferred Victimhood.  It would be an insult to a Kraut of the right age to have served as such, but that's hypothetical.

I really hope that Red Ken tells that kangeroo court to go fuck itself, and keeps doing his job.  I'd really like to see the consequences of that.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.

Yes it is insensitive by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #16 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 07:21:14 AM EST
Yeah my grandad died in Auchwitcz

...He accidently fell out of guard tower

[ Parent ]
I don't see it by martingale (4.00 / 1) #17 Thu Mar 02, 2006 at 03:43:26 PM EST
Clearly it's an insult, but it's not a particularly insensitive insult I think. All insults are insensitive in some sense, so one could say he shouldn't insult people, period. But if he's going to insult people anyway, then this one isn't worth making a fuss over. Jews don't have special rights, there's no reason why calling someone a concentration camp guard should be a nono against Jews.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]
"Jews don't have special rights" by Rogerborg (4.00 / 1) #19 Fri Mar 03, 2006 at 01:48:53 AM EST
I think that's where you and I disagree with the Jewslim Council of Great Britain.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]
dammit by martingale (2.00 / 0) #20 Fri Mar 03, 2006 at 05:01:53 AM EST
That's like the saying that goes "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice..."
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]
Red Ken and offensive language | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback