Print Story I was referred here by the esteemed HAND.
Kuro5hin
By NoMoreNicksLeft (Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:36:29 AM EST) kuro5hin, trolling, database (all tags)
It seems he took offense to my reporting one of his more imbecilic dupes. Words were exchanged. Tempers flared. In the end, he said that K5 would remain the mess that it is now, and that he felt compelled to to do his part to make sure that was the case. Then he politely bid me adeiu and suggested I come here.


Where do I apply for refugee status? What are the customs of this place, and will you be offended by the traditional dress of my people, the walrus leather loincloth and emu feather headress? Does it disgust you that I consider hippo eyeballs a delicacy? Do not fear, I am one of the uncommon civilized savages from the land of cor-ose-shin.

In truth, I registered this a few months ago, and I've been hesitant to post anything other than a few comments. My diaries are pretty lame, it's only when compared to the crapflood of "men pretending to be women" postings, that they're worthy at all. My only series so far, the RPCdb diaries might be a bit too risque for here. Though it would be nice to be able to post pictures (safe for work, mostly database diagrams).

Anyone have an opinion?

< Hi! | BBC White season: 'Rivers of Blood' >
I was referred here by the esteemed HAND. | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Database diagrams are hot by DesiredUsername (4.00 / 2) #1 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:49:56 AM EST
Hotter than what we have here anyway (UKians pretending to be men).

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I don't know if I should respond to you after... by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #8 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:40:41 AM EST
The toe thing.

But my "revolutionary porn categorization datbase" has about the most fucked up data model ever invented. I was considering getting a DBA cert, and needed an example more complex than the crap textbooks usually have.

It's only in the last few months I've considered turning it into a webapp, so that you could farm out the data entry to a bunch of people. I'm more than a little scared that it will work.

Anyway, I've described all my ideas in about a dozen k5 diaries, including my thought process as I solved a few of the more difficult aspects. Was even thinking about putting it in the queue there, but without images, some things are hard to convey. Maybe here.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
You think the db design is the best part of porn by DesiredUsername (3.00 / 3) #9 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:42:54 AM EST
You'll fit right in here.

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Now accepting suggestions for a new sigline
[ Parent ]
hulver, bring the 6 rating back by bob6 (4.00 / 2) #14 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:57:16 AM EST
I need it for a one shot.

Cheers.
[ Parent ]
IAWTP by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #15 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:00:18 AM EST


Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
My thoughts by Gedvondur (4.00 / 1) #2 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:50:33 AM EST
Is that you are the first person in over six months that actualy got me to click on a K5 link.  That's gotta be worth something.

Gedvondur
"If you do not sin, then you too may some day float like a big pink Goodyear blimp of The Lord." -theboz

a bit too risque for here by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #3 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 05:57:36 AM EST
Seen the toe diary that got posted to the front page?

Welcome aboard.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

Another refugee from K5 by thenick (4.00 / 5) #4 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:02:27 AM EST
Get this man a guitar and three donuts, STAT!

 
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"'Vengence is Mine', quoth Alvis. And then he shot the guy, right in the freaking face!"

And some hummos! by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #16 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:01:06 AM EST
And Whey!

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
Refugee status? by Awakened Dreamer (2.00 / 0) #5 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:09:07 AM EST

That's the account sign-up page I believe.

Welcome. Try not to step in anything.

Hi by hulver (4.00 / 4) #6 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:19:36 AM EST
We welcome all ex-kuro-five-hiners. Unless they're twats, then we mock them and ban them.

As to the non-twats, we just mock them.
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Cheese is not a hat. - clock

HuSi is to K5 what K5 used to be to /. by bob6 (4.00 / 1) #7 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:36:43 AM EST
However you shouldn't be so concerned. People here are much forgiving about the contents of one's diaries as long as you reveal a bit of yourself. So it's ok for DB diagrams but you will have to tell about your sex/drink/social/weight life as well.

Cheers.
Uh. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #11 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:47:53 AM EST
rarely/don't drink/recluse/30lbs overweight
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
OMG! NOT EVEN BIKING!? by bob6 (2.00 / 0) #13 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:55:14 AM EST
From which planet are you from?

People reach extreme lows here talking about football, toes, movies or books. Anything that crosses your head and heart will do, I dare to hope you don't draw DB diagrams 100% of your time... There's an occasional political diary in order to keep the form.

Oh! And the very good news: RMutt crossposts his diaries here.

Cheers.
[ Parent ]
CBB as well by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #17 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:02:00 AM EST


Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
Actually, by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #19 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:09:00 AM EST

this is just CBB's blog, where all the readers chat a lot.


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Vacuity abhors a vacuum.
[ Parent ]
I only started reading his over there... by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #18 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:06:42 AM EST
It's better than fark most of the time. Wonder why I ever thought they were junk.

Biking, is that like a bisexual viking or something?

Sometimes I talk about politics, or whatever. Mostly though, I'm out of the diagramming stage, I'm building a few webapps to make it all work. The idea goes like this.

Free users, I think I want 1000 or so. They get points for uploading pictures, and for entering all the data on the pictures. They get to use those points to then run searches on the pictures that have been indexed. (Meanwhile, I may try to make some cash allowing subscribers to just plain search... not a moneygrubber, but job ends in May.)

When I say enter data, I mean everything concievable. For instance, the webapp allows you to click on skin/eyes/hair to retrieve the RGB value, which is stored in the database. Lots of little SVG widgets/applets that only work in Firefox/Opera9 right now, but might work in the next versions of Konq and Safari.

Oh, and did I say free users? If anyone is interested, and patient enough to wait through all the beta testing I'm doing on the boring parts of the website...
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
Quality control? by Idempotent (2.00 / 0) #25 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:56:15 AM EST
How do you make sure the data isn't rubbish?

[ Parent ]
Ah, that is a good question. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #27 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:09:26 AM EST
It's all theory at this point (as opposed to the data entry web app, which is moderately functional).

I see two related problems, bad data entry due to sloppiness, and bad data entry as sabotage.

First off, I'm going to have a training system set up, where you do data entry on pictures with known values, to see who close you come to the ideal. I will expect people to put in at least a little practice (something reasonable, 20 minutes will let most do basic pictures). If you don't think you can do one correctly, skip it, and reward people for skipping those.

Plus, anyone running a search will be able to flag pictures as misindexed. A moderator determines if its just bad or sabotage, and the person either gets a message or banninated.

Pictures flagged are fixed, and put back into the pool of correctly indexed pictures.

Assuming that an average picture with a single girl in it will take 3-4 minutes or so to index, and that I might count on the average freeloader to index 3 pictures a week, we can have 100,000 images completely searchable before a year is out.

And when I mean searchable, I really mean searchable. This isn't just some lameass tagging scheme. If you design a query that only returns pictures that have 3 women at least one of which is a brunette, all with C cups or larger, and two of them wearing only purple bikini bottoms... that query will not return anything other than pictures that match that.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
Wearing bikini bottoms? by Idempotent (2.00 / 0) #28 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:13:51 AM EST
I think you're missing the point of porn.

There's always double entry systems as well. Get each thing indexed more than once, and combine the data.

How much of this is subjective?

And how will the indexers know if the girl is single or not?

[ Parent ]
I am not missing the point. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #30 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:32:29 AM EST
This data model is quite capable of correctly indexing things all the way from barely objectionable softcore all the way up to stuff so raunchy and nasty even I don't like to look at it.

Indexing things more than once defeats data normalization. It's the thing relational databases were designed to prevent. Say we have 3 girls, 2 blondes and a redhead. Do we index it twice under blonde? If each is doing something to the next girl, in a triangle, how exactly do you describe that with only tags?

The trick, is to put it in a proper database. We have a "pictures" table, where we store all the mundane stuff. Resolution, mime-type, whatever.

We set up another "actions" table, which is many to one to the "pictures" table. That is, a picture can have as many actions as we need.

Then we have a "persons" table. (Actually, more complex than this, this is the simplified version). The actions table has not one, but two relationships to this persons table, call them "giver" and "reciever" for lack of better names. That is, each action refers to 1 giver only, and 1 reciever only.

If the girl is doing herself? We point both at the same record in "persons". If the two girls are doing each other, well, we create two actions, with each the giver in one, reciever in the other... that way, we can still search for "69", but we still capture the data as its most basic action.

I've mostly eliminated everything that is glaringly subjective. Instead of choosing haircolor from a dropdown list, we capture actual pixel data. But there are a few things that they have to eyeball, and won't be perfect. For instance, I have an SVG applet of a posable stick figure, that sits on top of the image. The person doing data entry is expected to try and pose this as close as they can to match the person in the picture. Won't be perfect, but we can get the angles of every joint, XYZ coordinates for each. Which will make it possible to search for any possible position.

Mostly, I expect that to be used to see how far legs are spread, haha. But stuff like that will always be slightly subjective. If they get within 5-7% of the correct values, though, I consider it a complete success.

And how will the indexers know if the girl is single or not?

This isn't a dating service. Just a method of finding the exact kind of porn that you want.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
But, you talked about "single girls" by Idempotent (2.00 / 0) #32 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:39:06 AM EST
So... oh never mind.

You appear to have missed out "gender" in your data model.

And the bit about double entry was getting two or more people to index the same thing, and compare the results.

Where's the "source material" coming from?

[ Parent ]
Oh, my bad. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #35 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:05:23 AM EST
Gender is bigger and scarier than you think.

Broken up into birth gender and current gender, with more than the standard 2 for the former, at least.

Yeh, single girl pictures seem to be like they'll be the simplest... you know, just the slut standing there posing. My system will allow for orgy pictures too, obviously, but those will take more than 3 minutes to index properly I'm pretty sure.

As for indexing each twice, to compare results, I'm not sure I want to squander effort that way. If it means only 3% greater accuracy, is it worth having only 500,000 images indexed when I could have had a million? Plus, how do we reconcile it if they don't match very well?

Do I average out the numbers? Do I send it back and try again? Do I pick one or the other, and on what criteria?

Might be worth experimenting with though.

Where's the "source material" coming from?

People get points for uploading pictures, in addition to just indexing them. Better the picture, the more points you get.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
No copyright issues there then. by Idempotent (2.00 / 0) #36 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 09:50:50 AM EST
Is "better" for the point score subjective? Perhaps you could have a Scoop like rating system for indexing and quality of uploads?

I wonder whether the attitude shown by saying "just the slut standing there" is something you should worry about or not. But then, you are designing a massive database of porn, so hey...

How are you going to do the accessories? For example, bondage racks, benches, clothespegs, needles, floggers, whips, dildos, knives, monkey wrenches, angle-grinders, restraints, you know, that kind of thing. Will you have a classification system and 3D point modeling facility too?

How about you only use double entry when you're suspicious about quality? If they get flagged as dodgy, get them to index something known good.

[ Parent ]
Copyright, err.. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #37 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 03:16:49 PM EST
If anyone actually recognizes one they claim rights to, they're welcome to tell me so I can remove it*.

-shit-eating grin-

Better shouldn't be subjective, else there's no way to really be fair about it. I was thinking based on the number of actions in the picture, but that doesn't really work either, it only favors hardcore, or even orgy pictures, which really isn't what I want. Maybe just straightup resolution? Maybe a rating system would work, since I don't plan on allowing someone to index their own uploads, having a few other people vote on how much they should get wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Attitude? What I meant to type before my fingers betrayed me was young lady working her way through college the only way she could. Yeh, that's it.

Accessories are a bit complicated. It's not my intention to model every single component of a picture as a 3d object. Just those significant for the picture, and generally there's not alot of debate on such things.

First off, I intend to model what I'm calling "surfaces" for the moment. Any that a person interacts with: the floor, the walls if someone is leaning up against one, a ceiling if someone is hanging from it, etc. The tops of furniture. The surface of water (pool, bathtub, etc... and whether it is actually water or some other fluid).

Clothing also. Down to what type, what colors and material, and just how "worn" it is. Including jewelry here, since it will use the same interface.

Oh, and also their tattoos and piercings, where on the body exactly, what size and so forth. Where on the body there is "fluid", and just what that fluid is.

Sex toys are, for the purpose of the database, anything that is a direct "actor" in a particular action. Dildos too, but pretty much anything that might be used in a penetrative way. I have a rather complex wizard (80% finished) that will narrow it down, and let you choose an example that most closely resembles the one actually in the picture. Including food items, household "stuff", sex machines, even the Fleshlight(TM), despite it being an exception to the "penetrative" above. All items selectable that way get their own table, so I can continue to populate it with more.

I will probably create a distinct table for discipline objects, whips and paddles and whatnot. Punishment itself gets its own action, btw.

Bondage is exceedingly difficult. I hadn't even considered it until localroger himself used it in several examples that my system couldn't cope with. Who knew, eh? Anyway, still working on that. Japanese-style rope bondage is one of the things that I can't figure out a way to deal with in any practical way, and since it was first mentioned, a few other people have always come up with absurd examples that I can't figure. I expect to arrive at a solution though, and one that won't require user to become a 3d modeling wizard.

*I keep revising downward the length of time before someone turns me in for intellectual property violations. At first I thought I might have years, but now we're somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.17 seconds...
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
I suspect your database is going to be very boring by Idempotent (2.00 / 0) #42 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 11:47:35 PM EST
The tendency will be for people to just consume more of what they already like. Shouldn't they be encouraged to explore the variety available a bit more?

[ Parent ]
Maybe for some... by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #43 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:28:11 AM EST
For others, they'll search for bizarre stuff that is otherwise impossible to find even through google because of ranking manipulation. DVDA maybe. Or just how many pictures show exactly 27 lesbians and no other people. Is autocunnilingus possible? Probably not, but if it is and someone uploads a picture, it's just a simple SQL query away.

And of course, it will be possible to write queries that block all the things you'd never want to see, so that you can safely browse through the rest. Maybe that will help.

I think if it's successful at all, will just be a novelty, or something that the hardcore collector is interested in (we all have that friend that knows someone else who has 390 dvd-r's worth of porn he's collected since his first internet connection in the late 1980s).

Me, I'm more interested in proving that something so freeform can be stuffed into a database without making too many compromises. I still think that the subset of all photographs that is porn is only slightly less complex than the set of all photographs... it might be possible to do something like this for every picture.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
It will be too complex to be useful. by debacle (2.00 / 0) #46 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:04:12 PM EST
Unless you offer limited functionality to start, so that the users don't suffer from the shock of all of the options.

IF YOU HAVE TWO FIRLES THOROWNF MONEY ART SUOCIDE GIRLS STRIPPER HPW CAN YPUS :OSE?!?!?!?(elcevisides).

[ Parent ]
Congratulations by DesiredUsername (2.00 / 0) #29 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:30:11 AM EST
You just invented BBSs circa 1993.

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[ Parent ]
I didn't say that the business model... by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #31 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:34:27 AM EST
Is anything grand or novel. Only the database itself is. But it requires an incredible amount of manual data entry to be at all useful... so it's not so dumb an idea to farm it out to a bunch of people who all get to make use of the end result, is it?
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
Whoa by DesiredUsername (2.00 / 0) #33 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:40:00 AM EST
OK, I didn't get the full extent of the DBization until I read the other comments. That is cool and by "cool" I mean "getting pretty creepy".

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Now accepting suggestions for a new sigline
[ Parent ]
In other words... by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #34 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 08:40:46 AM EST
He'll fit right in here.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
Any unrequited love in your life? by Idempotent (4.00 / 2) #10 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:47:27 AM EST
Are you pointlessly chasing after unattainable women?

Does your partner regularly go abroad for indeterminate lengths of time, taking your children?

Are you really dull?

Are you intending to get into a relationship with another user?

No unrequited love. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #12 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:51:25 AM EST
No women in my life to chase after.

My ex-girlfriend of 6 years told me to get out, after I lost my job. Since I had been supporting her, and not the other way around, this was a little unfair. I left, moved to another city, where I've found a crap job that will not last as long as my landlord thinks it will. We had no children, I have no children.

Yes.

No.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
You sound OK. by Idempotent (2.00 / 0) #26 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:56:56 AM EST
Just steer clear of the Rogerbunty, and everything will be fine.

[ Parent ]
Ground rules for Husi. by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #20 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:26:42 AM EST
  1. Be prepared to read what everybody's eating for lunch.
  2. We already have a token conservative, and I'm it, so don't go horning onto my turf, all right?
  3. It helps if your personal life reads like a letter to Penthouse. Either that or Highlights for Children. Either style is accepted.



Personal life reads like a letter to Penthouse? by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #21 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:33:17 AM EST
You mean blatantly made up with x1000 times as much sex as I'd ever actually get, with women 50lbs lighter than would ever be interested in me?

Hmmm.

That seems completely within the realm of the feasible.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

[ Parent ]
Exactly. by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #23 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:40:16 AM EST
Asking us for advice on which stunningly attractive supermodel you should pork is also encouraged.



[ Parent ]
Super Kung Pao Chicken Day! by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #22 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:33:53 AM EST
You're not the only token conservative here. Mr. Borg has conservative tendencies. As do I.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
I'm having the same thing I have every day... by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #24 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 07:43:46 AM EST
a pack of snack crackers and a big jug of diet iced tea.

And, yeah, I know there are other conservatives on the site, but, you know, the joke wouldn't have worked as well if I listed all of us and then said there wasn't room for any more...


[ Parent ]
You're *the* token conservative? by Canthros (2.00 / 0) #38 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:01:08 PM EST
Clearly, I don't post enough around here. At the moment.

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I'm not here, man.


[ Parent ]
Hey, you want the job? by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #40 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:07:56 PM EST
Dude, it was a joke.

I thought the liberals were supposed to be the thin skinned ones?


[ Parent ]
This job--does it pay well? by Canthros (2.00 / 0) #44 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:55:40 AM EST
I cannot explain how very deeply this slight has offended me.

Being the token conservative was a major reason I stopped posting around here:)

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I'm not here, man.


[ Parent ]
You should hang more with MNS by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #47 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:28:02 PM EST
there's him, georgeha, myself, wiredog, and (once upon a time) tidave. I don't think any of us are hard line Coulterites but, by Husi standards "moderate centrist" == "right wing reactionary".


[ Parent ]
I know of this MNS--a libertarian, and strident by Canthros (2.00 / 0) #49 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 05:17:40 PM EST
obsessed with puppies, baristas, indy music, trolling DKos, and ... poo. :/ I even read and post in his diary and/or blog now and then.

I'm just not that active around here at all these days.

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I'm not here, man.


[ Parent ]
really? by garlic (2.00 / 0) #51 Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:28:17 AM EST
I thought that was the entire interweb: Porn, and fighting over politics.

I don't think anyone (besides tps12?) on the site wants to call themselves Democrats or Republicans.


[ Parent ]
Also, since humor, especially dry humor, translate by Canthros (2.00 / 0) #45 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:58:18 AM EST
s poorly to text: I posted after the exchange between yourself and wiredog.

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I'm not here, man.


[ Parent ]
Walrus leather? by Canthros (2.00 / 0) #39 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:02:53 PM EST
Totally gauche.

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I'm not here, man.


I'm being discriminated against. by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #41 Fri Feb 10, 2006 at 06:18:07 PM EST
You will not oppress me and my people! For too long, we've been pushed around by white people.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
Imagine how the walruses feel... by ObviousTroll (2.00 / 0) #48 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:34:32 PM EST
or is it "walrii"? I can never remember.



[ Parent ]
We... by NoMoreNicksLeft (2.00 / 0) #50 Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 06:56:46 PM EST
Do not perform the mystial spirit dance for 19 nights straight before going on the walrus hunt with surplus US Army grenades for nothing. Their souls have been calmed, knowing that they have given the greatest gift possible to our people, that of the loincloth. No white man could ever understand.
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Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.
[ Parent ]
I was referred here by the esteemed HAND. | 51 comments (51 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback