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By tps12 (Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 04:27:43 AM EST) (all tags)
S.z. at World O'Crap, who has been keeping up on the Annie Jacobson "story" (and treating it with the appropriate level of disdain), points to a Washington Times editorial (number 3) that really gets to the heart of what this whole thing has always been about.


Racial profiling is seen by some as a reasonable response to the threat of terrorism because those people understand feeling more secure as a positive end in itself. This is why some people can point to Jacobson's account and use it as an example of why racial profiling is necessary even as others use it to show why racial profiling is a terrible idea. The former are addressing the issue of how secure we (for a definition of "we" considerably narrower than I'm comfortable with) feel, while the latter try to argue based on how secure we actually are.

Dave Neiwert explains, in his take-down of Michelle Malkin (who has flogged the Jacobson story tirelessly and hinted that she thought the correct response might be internment), how the excuses that are trotted out today to justify Japanese internment in the Second World War—intercepted communications regarding Japanese-American spies and attempts at sabotage—were not actually used to make the case for internment at the time. It had much more to do with playing on people's fears of the "yellow peril" in a way that made them feel more secure than it did with addressing any real security threat.

A way of looking at the current debate is in terms of the phrase "the terrorists have already won." On one side, people say that if Americans are afraid to fly on airplanes, then the terrorists have already won. On the other side, people say that if Americans are being  denied their rights without due process then the terrorists have already won. Both sides identify the terrorists' winning as the ultimate bad result, and because each side's framing of the situation implicitly condones the very thing that the other associates with this ultimate bad result, no agreement or compromise can be realized.

This is exactly why the civil libertarians' argument, that racial profiling comes at a huge cost in rights while doing little to make us less vulnerable, falls on deaf ears: actually making anyone safer is not the primary goal of racial profiling supporters. Therefore, to oppose it on those grounds is fruitless. It must be acknowledged that, to a sizeable (and increasingly vocal) minority of Americans, merely feeling safer really is a worthwhile goal, a goal well served by profiling and even internment. Two potentially effective responses to this are

  1. arguing persuasively that there are better ways to make people feel safer and
  2. attempting to change people's framing of the subject.
Strangely, I feel like the first one would be easier, but can only conceive of approaches to the second, probably because my own understanding of the issue is too strongly aligned with one framework.

Ideas?

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Profiling and Internment | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Profiling by jimgon (6.00 / 1) #1 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 04:39:12 AM EST
In general I'm against racial profiling.  Just because a guy's black don't make him a drug dealer or a pimp.  But in the case of a terrorist plot, I'm sorry, but if we're looking for Islamic terrorists it's likely to be a youngish male Muslim from the Middle East.  It's highly unlikely to be a five year old with a teddy bear from Middle America. 

So I guess I have to say that racial profiling carte blanc is wrong.  But it does have some merits in certain specific areas.





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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell


Terrorism by DesiredUsername (6.00 / 4) #2 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 04:40:35 AM EST
treats profiling like damage and routes around it.

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Now accepting suggestions for a new sigline
[ Parent ]

Indeed by theboz (6.00 / 1) #3 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 05:10:05 AM EST
That's why it seems like the white supremacist group The National Alliance now has some ties to al Qaeda, and may be working together in planning an attack.

I could be mistaken, it's fairly shaky evidence, but based originally off of that FBI counterterrorism agent that spoke out against not being allowed to investigate a non-specific white supremacist group in Florida who had contacted al Qaeda. There's more info out there, though.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]

Paranoid by jimgon (6.00 / 1) #7 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 05:59:03 AM EST
I've stated it before, I'm paranoid.  I don't typically believe things the FBI states.  They're oriented for politics not for law enforcement.  I'll grant that home grown terrorism happens, but if Al Queda is the enemy then you have to look at their base.  Of course we could do the right thing and treat the Arabs like human beings and be nice to them.  Perhaps give $80 billion in humanitarian aid instead destruction.





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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]

I agree with you by theboz (6.00 / 5) #11 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 06:15:27 AM EST
I've stated it before, I'm paranoid. I don't typically believe things the FBI states. They're oriented for politics not for law enforcement.

There have been so many whistleblowers lately for both the FBI and CIA that have revealed very startling things about how bureaucratic they operate, and how they don't seem to care about doing their jobs as much as trying to be promoted. They also have a cold war mentality and are not set up to work after the end of the cold war.

I'll grant that home grown terrorism happens, but if Al Queda is the enemy then you have to look at their base.

There hasn't been another Oklahoma City type event on behalf of home grown terrorists for a while, but they are still around and are still planning major things and committing crimes. Don't forget that earlier this year a white supremacist was found with chemical weapons capable of killing about 3,000 people, plus other bombs and weapons. The anthrax attacks after 9/11 appear to have been home grown, possibly white supremacists, perhaps even the same ones who seem to have ties to al Qaeda now. You have to realize that the two groups could benefit from each other. Al Qaeda would benefit by being able to effectively outsource their terrorism to white Americans who would blend in perfectly and have a better knowledge of where to attack. The white supremacists could also commit crimes and make it appear that it was arab terrorists, so that they could get away with more and build up hatred against non-whites. Plus, both sides could hurt the U.S. government. It's scary how much both sides would be able to accomplish against us if they joined forces. That's why I'm not in favor of "the war against terror" meaning "the war against psycho arab muslims." What I also don't trust is the Bush administration. Imagine if the Oklahoma City bombing had occurred under his watch. We'd all be tricked into thinking it was arab terrorists, and that it was somehow tied to Iraq or whoever $enemy_of_the_day is.

Perhaps give $80 billion in humanitarian aid instead destruction.

Perhaps, but I think leaving them alone would be a bigger help in preventing terrorism. We need to abandon that region altogether.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]

it's very rude.. by infinitera (5.50 / 4) #12 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 06:29:10 AM EST
To fuck up somebody's home and leave without restitution.

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How many successful trolls does it take to earn the title of "pundit"? Also, if 10 trolls work together, is that a "think tank"? — ENOENT
[ Parent ]

thought by tps12 (3.00 / 0) #6 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 05:56:40 AM EST
Maybe something like "negative racial profiling" could work. Like, security guys search people at random, but when the random number machine (or 2D10 or whatever they use) turns up a five-year-old with a teddy bear or a blue-haired granny, they skip to the next person. OTOH, that's just sort of asking for terrorists to find a way to game the system (e.g., divorced corn-fed blonde falls for fundamentalist Muslim, agrees to stick some explosive device in her kid's teddy bear (okay, so she's crazy as well, but you see my point)) and it's probably already in effect at the lowest level anyway (most security workers probably don't spend a lot of time sorting through granny's meds; even in the absence of racial profiling at the policy level, I'd think this would be an exploitable hole for terrorists).

[ Parent ]

Of course by jimgon (3.00 / 0) #8 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 06:00:47 AM EST
None of this prevents a terrorist from loading an a-bomb on a container in Singapore and shipping it to San Diego.





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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
[ Parent ]

true by tps12 (6.00 / 1) #10 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 06:07:04 AM EST
In that sense, any airline security measures are more PR than anything else.

[ Parent ]

At least with FedEx by ad hoc (6.00 / 1) #13 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 06:46:42 AM EST
it would stop in Memphis first. No harm done there.
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Racial profiling by jump the ladder (6.00 / 2) #4 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 05:17:04 AM EST
Thing is that there are quite a few non-arab/asian converts to the Al-Queda brand of islamic fundamentalism. Richard Reid, the shoe bomber, for example.



right by tps12 (3.00 / 0) #9 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 06:05:11 AM EST
The same was true of the Japanese in WWII—intelligence "chatter" at the time was full of talk about recruiting "white persons and Negroes" as spies because ethnic Japanese people were too suspicious. Internment as a security measure would have been foolish and ineffective, and officials knew this and did it anyway.

[ Parent ]

Were there any Jap spies in the US by jump the ladder (3.00 / 0) #14 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 07:09:34 AM EST
During WW2? It's just that it's hard to imagine they managed to recruit any non-Jap to spy for them.

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according to Neiwert by tps12 (6.00 / 1) #15 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 08:05:55 AM EST
There were seven US citizens caught spying for Japan and they were all white. There were ethnic Japanese spies, but none of them were citizens.

[ Parent ]

Great diary by cam (6.00 / 1) #5 Fri Aug 06, 2004 at 05:44:11 AM EST
If I knew how to get back the little box that allows these things to be voted to the front page I would vote for it. I dont hold with those that want to feel secure emotionally, and are prepared to intern every and any minority in an attempt to give some relief to their own shrill and irrational insecurities. That is not what living in a civil society is about.

When I was back in Australia the year after Sept 11th, I was in a bookshop and bought a bunch of books on Australian politics. The lady that served me joked, "that I had bought some light reading". When I mentioned I had a 22 hour flight back she asked where. When I said where she asked about terrorism. My reply was the under cooked meat one, "I am in more danger from undercooked meat than terrorism, statistically I am fine. It doesnt worry me."

I also told them my mate in the office next to mine was in the Pentagon when it got hit by a plane, and that I had to wash my hands when I opened mail for a while there as the local mail depot was one of those that was infected with anthrax.

Even so, if a bunch of Middle Eastern musicians want to have fun with a paranoid and insecure passenger that is fine. Until they actually do something like set their shoes on fire, jump and yell that they want the plane to fly to Tasmania or rush the cockpit. They are not a danger. And if they are, it is a statistical risk I am prepared to take as an alternative to living in a police state.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic


interesting. by Patriclus (3.00 / 0) #16 Wed Aug 11, 2004 at 12:25:51 PM EST
I'll have to think more about your point about the framing.

Wondering whether there's a real distinction to be made between feeling secure and being secure, in a practical sense.  I think the coherent version of that last sentence will have to wait.  Something to do with subjective evaluations of security-services and their expression in individual demand for the same. 

Maybe there's something to say here about the myth of national defense as being not only mythical in the aspect of understanding it as a necessarily government-produced good but also in its assessment of the optimal size of the region whose security needs to be defended as identical with the geographical size of the nation-state itself. 

In any case, I must go.



Profiling and Internment | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback