Print Story Those Kids and Their Music
Music
By MohammedNiyalSayeed (Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 02:30:48 AM EST) (all tags)

This weekend, I watched Barry Miles talk about cultural change at a Barnes and Noble in New York on CSPAN. Miles was speaking in promotion of his recent book, "Hippie". While I'll admit Miles has an extensive knowledge of 60s "counterculture", it seems he's fallen prey to the ravages of old age and elderly myopia in his consideration of more contemporary culture. This is somewhat typical of those who were immersed in Beat culture, but haven't managed to keep up with developments in more underground culture, instead preferring to compare groups like the Velvet Underground with what are quite simply not their current peers. Britney Speers cannot be fairly compared to VU. Early Rolling Stones cannot be fairly compared to Christina Aguilera. The Velvet Underground was not a product of corporate marketing; both Miles and I can agree on that. However, his lack of knowledge about anything other than the mainstream pap that passes as pop does not excuse his lack of research or awareness about what's going on in less-than-mainstream cultural avenues today.



Interestingly enough, Miles seems to be a fairly well-known expert on all things Burroughs. Yet, Burroughs remained fairly plugged in to the inheritors of underground cultural tradition until his death in 1997. In a way, this isn't terribly surprising, as Burroughs was a participant in creating culture, whereas Miles is a mere commentator. Burroughs was immersed in it; Miles was a spectator. Burroughs got calls from people who wanted to collaborate with him; Miles sells books about other people's work.

The very real fact that Miles misses is that there is plenty of interesting music being made today. That the interesting material isn't on MTV shouldn't come as too much of a surprise. MTV is a corporation, helping other large conglomerates move the proverbial product. Was there ever a time when they were "pushing the envelope"? Even during the pre-Nirvana "alternative rock" days, "120 Minutes" was basically just a venue for them to promote 1) European pop music (eg: The Smiths, New Order, Echo and the Bunnymen), and 2) US "college rock" from bands who happened to be big enough to have a distributor with the budget to make videos. And even that venue is long since gone, replaced with non-stop Michelle Branch promotion, John Mayer specials, "angsty" Peal Jam clones (the existence of such a thing, in itself, a statement of unparallelled sadness), and Cult of Personality crap like "news" articles about Courtney Love, easily one of the poorest excuses for a songwriter seen in recent years. MTV isn't in the business of taking chances; they're in the business of helping their corporate partners push crap on 13 year old boys. Hell, at this very moment there are not one, not two, not three, but FOUR former Mickey Mouse Club alumni considered to be huge stars on MTV; Justin Timberlake, Britney Speers, Christina Aguilera, and Jessica Simpson. Not to mention Simpson's younger, more "indie" sister, Ashlee. What the fuck? Loathe as I am to quote self-important rock has-been/manipulator extraordinaire, Jello Biafra, a certain Dead Kennedys song comes immediately to mind. But I'm loathe, so I will simply imply the quote, and leave it at that.

Miles is lazy, as are so many other people his age. Miles doesn't know about Grandaddy; Miles sees Coldplay. Miles doesn't know about Koufax, Miles sees Usher. Miles doesn't know about the Postal Service or Rilo Kiley; instead, he thinks all youth culture is entrenched in the banality of Korn and Linkin Park. He doesn't see Marc Ribot, he sees Pink. Who can blame him for bemoaning modern culture, given his sample set? Well, I can. The limited scope of his sample set is entirely his fault.

As I get older, I can only hope I don't become Miles. I hope I don't get that lazy. I want to make sure I'm always willing to dig to find worthwhile new material. I hope I don't become my ${coworker}, convinced there hasn't been a good record made since 1978, convinced that Clapton is a god; convinced that because I'm too busy to go find new and interesting music, that it must simply not exist. I hope I'm more like my ${coworker(FormerEmployer)}, who was always listening. I hope that, when I have kids, I can instill some good taste in them, then rely on them to bring interesting new music for me to enjoy as well.

I don't want to die a lazy old curmudgeon, whining about how nothing's like it used to be when I was young. I hate those dudes now; it'd be a nightmare to become one.

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Those Kids and Their Music | 74 comments (74 topical, 2 hidden) | Trackback
word by tps12 (6.00 / 3) #1 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 02:40:27 AM EST
Since you seem to have forgotten to include any RNC talking points, instead filling your diary with stuff I agree with, I have no choice but to resort to correcting your misspelling of "loath." But yeah, preach it. You'd think guys like this would be very wary of any kind of "kids these days" complaints and would do three minutes of homework before making them.



Sorry about the lack of RNC talking points by MohammedNiyalSayeed (6.00 / 1) #5 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 02:56:46 AM EST

Something something Kerry is a flip flopper something something should release his military records blah blah blah. I'll try to do better next time.

I'm thinking Miles has become that which he loathd as a young man, and doesn't even know it. I just wish I had been at that Barnes and Noble, where I could have asked some questions the aging hippies in the audience didn't have the awareness to ask, though I'm sure I would have got a dismissing "well, I've not heard of them, as I'm busy these days writing about the past" or something like that. Also, I forgot to mention the humor of someone promoting a book at a fucking Barnes and Noble about counterculture, and how it's not like the good old days.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Bush == Hitler by ucblockhead (6.00 / 1) #78 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 08:56:23 AM EST
Just so ya know...
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]

They're clearly different by Rogerborg (6.00 / 1) #80 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 11:02:50 AM EST
Hitler had a degree of élan and panache.  W thinks those are fru fru East Coast pancake fillings.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

Exsqueeze me? by ucblockhead (6.00 / 1) #81 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 11:44:31 AM EST
When I Hear the word 'culture' I get my gun. Just tell me that doesn't sound like a drunk cowboy from Texas.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]

Zeitgeistiest sig ev@r [nt] by yicky yacky (6.00 / 1) #8 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:15:19 AM EST

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Vacuity abhors a vacuum.
[ Parent ]

Nazi Punks Fuck Off! by wiredog (6.00 / 3) #2 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 02:44:44 AM EST
I saw DK at the old 9:30 club back in '83. Back when DC was the East Coast center of the Punk Movement. Well, it would've been a Movement if the Punk Ethos had allowed that much organization or mainstreaming. It was a lot of fun back then.

<grandpa>These days 'punk' seems to be more of the angst rock clones of Pearl Jam and Nirvana, and less of the 'three guys who have no talent, but do have a message.' </grandpa>

Even rap is mindless these days.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)



uh by tps12 (6.00 / 2) #3 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 02:47:50 AM EST
Did you even read the diary?

[ Parent ]

An interesting troll there, sir by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #6 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:06:04 AM EST

I can't think of Biafra these days without thinking of the animosity the rest of the DKs have for him following that whole lawsuit thing, and the way he carries himself these days. Someday I'll have to tell my little altercation with Biafra story from 2001 in San Francisco.

Mainstream rap blows goats, but if you're genuinely interested in what's good these days, you should start with anything Def Jux.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Actually, mainstream rap doesn't. by mrgoat (6.00 / 1) #35 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:55:10 AM EST
I mean, not to my knowledge. I'm not gettin' any.

--top hat--
[ Parent ]

Tell it now. by notafurry (6.00 / 1) #53 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:44:24 AM EST
You know you're not doing anything better anyway. Neither are we. So make with the clicky-clicky.

[ Parent ]

It'll get it's own diary. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #60 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:59:09 AM EST

But I *did* work on it a bit. Not gonna happen today, though.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Well. by notafurry (6.00 / 1) #64 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:05:22 AM EST
We want to see the story! I'm gonna hold my breath until I turn blue!

Well, no I won't. Let's see...

I'll listen to Clapton! Shit, no music capabilities here... Not that Clapton is music, but that's beside the point.

All right, damnit, you're making me pull out the big guns.

I'll watch Fear Factor tonight. All 90 minutes. Don't think I won't!

[ Parent ]

90 minutes?!? by tps12 (6.00 / 1) #65 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:07:54 AM EST
Please tell me that's a joke.

[ Parent ]

Sadly... by notafurry (6.00 / 1) #71 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:14:47 AM EST
No, it's not. My wife intends to watch the "Last Comics Standing" thing tonight - which might at least provide a chuckle or two - and I noticed that it's one of only two shows on NBC tonight.

Fear Factor is starting it's new season with a 90 minute episode. Now, never having actually watched an episode of Fear Factor, I can only speculate about the horrors this will certainly entail, but if mns forces my hand I will sit and watch them all. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

[ Parent ]

You crazy masochist by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #70 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:13:37 AM EST

I'll do my best. No need to get all drastic!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

re: -quote by BlueOregon (6.00 / 2) #4 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 02:49:05 AM EST

Your use of negative space is inspirational.

But what do you mean that Clapton isn't a god? I mean, he puts the clap in ... oh, nevermind. I just know that I want to be like ${MohammedNiyalSayeed} when I grow up.

_
I mean, can't she just be stupid about *men*?


I try, I really do by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #7 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:09:04 AM EST

I've always held Clapton and his ilk in a fair amount of contempt. Then again, I hate the Beatles, too, for similar reasons of stealing Black music and regurgitating it as more Caucazoid-palatable fare, then reaping all the critical acclaim as if the ideas were theirs, and original. However, I commend you on your grow-up goals, and hope that I am someday worthy of such esteem.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

A nit by ad hoc (6.00 / 2) #19 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 04:40:19 AM EST
I don't see anything wrong, really, with appropriating others' music and "reimagining" it.

Re: Beatles. I like them, and always have. Mostly. Except when my roommate in college was such a fanboi that I just couldn't bear to listen to one more minute of the stuff. I'm not so sure it was the Beatles who claimed to have invented the stuff, it was their rabid fanbase who said that. They have always had respect for those who came before.

Same with the Rolling Stones, only moreso.

If you need to find one who fits the mold of what you're saying, a better match would probably be Elvis. (Presly, not Costello.)

It's (generally) not the musicians that make those sorts of claims, it's the marketing machines (RIAA) behind them that do that sort of thing.

I think it's really, really cool when a musician hears something new and incorporates it into his/her own music where it becomes at once an homage to the native, and something totally new. Paul Simon. Peter Gabriel. I mean, the Beatles mixed black R&B with Indian sitar and came out with something totally else.

I mean, look at Gang Green's version of Til Tuesday's Voices Carry. Marvelous!

And there are many, many other examples.
--

[ Parent ]

Point taken. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #21 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 04:50:10 AM EST

You're right about appropriation being useful and beneficial most of the time. And you're right about the rabid fan base being more problematic than the artists themselves. When I look back to a particularly rabid Beatles fanboi I'm thinking of, what pissed me off was that he would attribute ideas to the Beatles as their own when in fact, Charles Ives had the idea decades before, or whoever. He didn't know much about music as a whole; he knew a lot about the Beatles, though, and his shortsightedness on the subject of music history caused him to believe that the Beatles were the end-all be-all behind all musical evolution, where before it was all insipid, meaningless crap.

So I guess what I mean to say is, I have no problems with appropriation, as long as there is attribution.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Oh! Oh! by ad hoc (6.00 / 1) #24 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:02:30 AM EST
I thought of an even better example:

s/Elvis Presley/Pat Boone
--

[ Parent ]

better s/Presley/Led Zeppelin by georgeha (6.00 / 1) #28 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:15:24 AM EST
I don't think Pat Boone takes himself as seriously as Elvis or Zep.


[ Parent ]

Who was Elvis Led Zeppelin? Folk? <nt> by notafurry (6.00 / 1) #55 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:47:44 AM EST


[ Parent ]

Perhaps what Mr Miles is bemoaning by Rogerborg (6.00 / 1) #9 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:16:29 AM EST
Is that Best of the $DECADE collections are going to get pretty sucky right... about... now.

In twenty years, who's going to remember, let alone seek out those non-sucky acts that you're listing?  Best of the Noughties is going to be Kid Rock and Linkin Park.  You'd better back up that non-sucking media and hang onto your CD player, grandad, because you're not going to be able to get new copies on DigiWafer or whatever we switch to come 2015.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.


I like to think that by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #13 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:29:25 AM EST

Best of $DECADE collections are going to stop being sold. Or, rather, that the vendors who currently market such things will run out of an audience sufficient to make doing such a thing profitable, and *they* will cease to exist.

I could be wrong; major record companies may figure out a way to sue everyone into keeping them alive indefinitely, but my guess is that ultimately, in twenty years, the people who are going to remember and seek out currently non-sucking acts are the ones who will be seeking out then-contemporary non-sucking acts. It'll be interesting to see how the whole thing develops. On the other hand, I'm *already* having trouble finding non-sucky acts from my youth; for the life of me, I can't find "Sleeper: A Retrospective" by the Creepers *anywhere* in CD form. In fact, it may not have ever existed on CD, as far as I know. Thank ${InvisibleSkyGiant} I have those old Fall retrospective compilations to tide me over until I find one on vinyl. And then find a turntable for cheap for which to use to convert it to digital iPoddy format.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Hooey by ad hoc (6.00 / 1) #20 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 04:41:49 AM EST
There will always be the 30+ year old trying to relive prom night.
--

[ Parent ]

Ooh, good idea by georgeha (6.00 / 3) #27 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:14:32 AM EST
I'll see if my buds are available for some rousing stag D&D.


[ Parent ]

i dunno by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #10 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:18:36 AM EST
I like the genre inhabited by Clapton, Hendrix, Morrison etc. I don't think they're gods, but I haven't yet encountered new music with a similar sound. Not that I've tried to look, of course. But my point is simply that I like that which is considered "old", and afaik, it's not getting any newer.

____
I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS


The difference is you just like 'old stuff' by MohammedNiyalSayeed (6.00 / 1) #11 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:24:02 AM EST

and you're not proclaiming 'new stuff' to be uninteresting crap. My problem is not with people who don't know a lot about music, but like particular things, but rather with people who like particular things, but don't let their lack of knowledge stop them from having strong opinions about things they don't even know exist. If that makes any sense.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

isn't that just a struggle with stupidity? by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #12 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:27:29 AM EST
Hint: You're outnumbered 9 to 1.

____
I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS
[ Parent ]

This is likely true by MohammedNiyalSayeed (6.00 / 1) #14 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:30:42 AM EST

Yet it is still a noble fight.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

hey, by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #15 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:32:48 AM EST
Could I email you for suggestions on new music to check out, or would you be unfamiliar with my sort?

____
I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS
[ Parent ]

Sure by MohammedNiyalSayeed (6.00 / 1) #16 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:39:46 AM EST

No guarantees on whether you'll like particular stuff or not, but I'll do my best to match what you're looking for to what I know about. The email address in my user info works, if you make the appropriate adjustment.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

no it isn't. by rmg (6.00 / 1) #17 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:54:07 AM EST
says the dkos troller?? by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #18 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 04:22:43 AM EST
I fail to distinguish the nobility of one from the other.

____
I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS
[ Parent ]

really? by rmg (6.00 / 1) #23 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 04:58:55 AM EST
that was not your position just two months ago when you called it "a public service."




[t]rolling retards conversation, period.
[ Parent ]

right, you can't read by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #25 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:03:17 AM EST
I'm saying both are.

____
I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS
[ Parent ]

there is no analogy. by rmg (6.00 / 1) #31 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:36:28 AM EST
i had two goals at the dailykos

  1. get a lot of bites. (mission accomplished)

  2. work on the prevailing sentiments precluding what i would consider open and honest discourse. (sort of an afterthought)

i do not think people at the dailykos are stupid (though certainly the stupidest amongst them act as a levelling factor through the exercise of moderation in accord with prevailing sentiment). the second goal is superior to "fighting" stupidity (which, after all, is mostly congenital) in that one can reasonably expect to get somewhere with it and it does not amount to smugly pointing out ignorance, but rather getting down in the dirt with them and banging things out through confrontation and drama.




[t]rolling retards conversation, period.
[ Parent ]

I guess MIles just has good taste by genius (1.50 / 6) #22 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 04:57:40 AM EST
Grandaddy: Whiny, over-intellectual, anemic neo-prog rock. Postal Service: twee over-processed pop with simply bad lyrics (courtesy of the singer from Death Cab for Cutie). How are these bands any more influential than major acts like Coldplay, except amongst, perhaps, trainspotters and record store clerks?



I give you a 1 for effort. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.50 / 2) #26 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:08:38 AM EST

You obviously know how to use allmusic.com, which is great, right, but "over-intellectual" to describe Grandaddy? Come on, man. Now I *know* you've never heard them. Not to mention the automatic discrediting you do to yourself by using the word "twee". Twee, indeed. Your comment, good sir, is "twee".

Also, it would behoove you to learn the difference between "influential" (which requires the passing of time), and "interesting", though, if you're defending Coldplay, you may well be beyond hope.

Good day, sir.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Good work by genius (1.00 / 6) #29 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:16:01 AM EST
I guess you know more about my record collection than I do. Actually, I doubt you've heard much Grandaddy, and are just name-dropping to make yourself look pretentious. So, why do you think Grandaddy aren't intellectual?

[ Parent ]

Welcome to hulver.com by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 4) #30 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:30:56 AM EST

We appreciate both of your contributions to this discussion site in your current incarnation. One tool you might find useful for future discussion is the fully-functioning search feature, which allows you to look up who's talked about what in the past.

I'd address your question if it was remotely interesting to me, but it, like yourself, is not. You're welcome for me spending this much of my valuable time interacting with you, and you are now dismissed, and can go back to listening to Eric Clapton records and nursing your hurt little feelings. Adieu.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Okay, I searched by genius (1.14 / 7) #32 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:38:45 AM EST
Where's this discussion you are talking about?

And I can't see why you can't just answer my simple question in a couple of words. Cat got your tongue?

[ Parent ]

I'm pretty sure I just told you to fuck off by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.50 / 2) #33 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:47:15 AM EST

Hold on, let me check... Yep, I did.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Now I'm curious by genius (1.14 / 7) #34 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:52:12 AM EST
Why do you keep a public weblog if anyone who disagrees with you has to "fuck off"?

Can't tolerate any real debate?

[ Parent ]

Hiding my comments? by genius (1.00 / 9) #36 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 05:55:26 AM EST
Telling me to fuck off?. Geez, I just wanted to have a debate about Grandaddy.

Again, why do you keep a public weblog if anyone who disagrees with you has to "fuck off"?

[ Parent ]

It's my thought by djproselytic (6.00 / 1) #49 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:36:25 AM EST
that the very acts you extol above as being still underground are not, in fact, influential to the majority of teen and young listeners. Miles may be closer to the truth than you are giving him credit for.

I happen to know for a fact that YOU, MNS, would be considered "old" by any 15-year-old worth his/her self-esteem-identification-against-the-older salt. (I too fall into this "old" category...) It would seem to me that looking for and appreciating underground (or at least more artistically interesting bands) is an practice that has far more meaning and significance to older volk such as you or I; NOT, in fact, to a majority of youth. That was the kind of activity that denoted at best a small subset of youth when we could be counted amongst them, and I believe that youth today (15~20 years later) have an even smaller percentage of "cool" music seekers because there is so much MORE music available to them today (most of which is, as you so adroitly labeled it, "pap"). The music industry in the mid-late-80s-early-90s picked up on our vibe and sloshed out huge amounts of product (around about "Nevermind") chosen because it a) sounding vaugely "alternative" and b) would sell and c) boosted sales of such things like doc martens and black t-shirts with band images on them.

Like neoconservatives today, music-listening youth seem to be expressing a certain kind of willfullness AGAINST new and interesting underground art and culture...as if they don't WANT alternatives, because that's what the immediately previous generation wanted.

It could be that your post is a bit of that same elderly myopia you seek so stridently to avoid, but rather than omitting entire genres of music, stressing these genres to exclusion of the huge amounts of crap we were subjected to as young hipsters that caused US to seek out new and interesting art. The future ain't what it used to be.

~
djproselytic -------- "Since each of us was many, there was already quite a crowd".- Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari


eh by tps12 (6.00 / 1) #51 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:38:41 AM EST
Were 15-year-olds really the ones driving underground music in the 60's and 70's?

[ Parent ]

I am definitely old by MohammedNiyalSayeed (6.00 / 1) #56 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:55:07 AM EST

Of this, there is no question. The prime difference between myself and Mr. Miles, though, is that I cannot dismiss all modern music as 'pap', whereas he apparently felt comfortable enough to do so, citing as his evidence only the sort of drivel major labels promote so heavily. Where, in Miles' opinion, music stopped being innovative and influential (specifically the 'punk' era of the late 70s), I maintain nothing stopped then except his effort put forth in finding out what's really going on outside of major label output.

The majors definitely picked up on the marketability of 'alternative' rock around the time, and this did some serious damage to the genre as a whole, whereas people who had previously been quite interested in it turned elsewhere for new music. For me, it was a turn to hip hop. Hip hop was later coopted for the same purpose by the same majors, resulting in a lot of sales, again, for said majors, but it didn't kill the genre as far as innovation went; if anything, it incited more innovation that went under the radar of popular culture. Without hip hop turning into a commodity, overall, there would likely have been no interesting experiments like Gravediggaz, or the solo Prince Paul efforts, or Freestyle Fellowship, or, later, Aesop Rock, El P, Company Flow, Aceyalone, and the whole turntablism thing embodied by the Invisibl Skratch Piklz. Anyway, major labels will do their best to usurp whatever they can in order to make a profit, but lately it seems they aren't plugged in enough to know *what* to coopt anymore.

While this diary speaks really only of rock-oriented popular music, there are entire genres out there of material that goes under the radar; the creation of "electronica" as a genre is indicative of the majors desire to cash in on the various actual genres (namely, drum and bass, techno, electroclash, jungle, trance, and the others, to name a few), the effort they made didn't crush those other genres. It created "superstars" like Orbital or Aphex Twin, while LTJBuken continues to maintain a reasonable living doing his thing, off the radar, as it were.

My main point is not so much about influence as it is innovation; influence can only be objectively analyzed after enough time has passed to see influence where it makes itself evident. Innovation, on the other hand, is apparent at the time it happens, if people choose to look for it. When Miles indicates that there's nothing worth listening to these days, it isn't because he's right, it's because he's too lazy to look for it, where he might not have been when he wasn't a silver-haired cultural commentator, waxing poetic about the good old days. I am encouraged, though, to see the precise opposite of what you describe as potential anti-new music bias on the behalf of kids these days, as is evidenced by my not-infrequent trips to see new music, where they are omnipresent, and enthused to see something other than the tripe that passes for culture in mass media.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Indeed. by djproselytic (6.00 / 1) #73 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:22:34 AM EST
Right you are sir, re: underground hip-hop and electronica...the latter being one of my more favorite sub genres, as you know. Both have thriving underground movements which exist independently of the major label machine, both are artistically vibrant and innovative.

Not having read Miles' book, I am at a loss to specifically bring up points of his that I feel the same way as you about, specifically re: his laziness, although for a man his age it seems an a priori truth that is the case. Age tends to support cultural ossification.

Re: your comments about kids and new music: it may be the case that I live in an area that is not new-music friendly. Most of the shows I have been to in the last 4 years out here have been filled with that same self-important SF indy crowd and not ANY enthusiastic kids. CH/R/D however, being a "smaller" market for music, has a rich tradition of indy music. It makes a fair amount of sense that you would see more kids there enjoying the stuff. SF is old and tired. Berkeley, on the other hand....

~
djproselytic -------- "Since each of us was many, there was already quite a crowd".- Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari
[ Parent ]

I always thought that was weird by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #75 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:35:14 AM EST

Although I didn't actually leave the house to go to shows very often until the last year I was there, when I did, I went to see acts I was particularly enthused to see, and I figured the people there would also be fairly enthused to see them. Frequently, it seemed as though I was the only one there who gave a shit there was a band playing at all. Everyone was seemingly more concerned with small talking and (anti)social networking with the other malcontents, to the exclusion of the musical entertainment. Don't get me wrong, there's a great deal of function in going to drink and hang out with friends, but aren't there bars where you don't have to pay 15 bucks to get in that allow for the same thing? When I've gone to shows in Chapel HIll, I've seen people actually shushed for talking while the band was playing (only during quiet parts, they're not *complete* freaks), and it doesn't seem like a Malcontent Fashion Show. I mean, sure, everyone's wearing the uniform, but there's a lack of cooler-than-thouness going on which is nice.

I don't really think it's a small-town vs. big city thing; I think San Francisco is specifically fucked up. But we've discussed that before.

And speaking of drinking/loitering bars in SF, I take this opportunity to announce that I miss Zeitgeist.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

re: poll by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #54 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 06:46:01 AM EST
Did I miss some back story there? I'm confused..

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I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS


He's an Indymedia Admin by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #63 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:04:39 AM EST

Who is quoted in this article. Congratulations, you found the hidden RNC Talking Point gem, sir! (Actually, not, but it's the most political point in the diary, wherein my point is, if Matt Toups, former Duke student/current CMU student considers the posting of his enemies personal information to be covered as free speech, then surely he has no problem with me posting his email address.)


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

ah by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #68 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:11:04 AM EST
Seems reminiscent of Army of God peeps doing that for abortion clinics. Strange, his website doesn't look terror-inspirational. Then again, people can do all sorts of things to the Outside/Other that they wouldn't dream of doing to people they consider human. Sigh.

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I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS
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Sad, no matter who does it. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (6.00 / 1) #74 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:24:37 AM EST

n/t


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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ugh by tps12 (6.00 / 1) #69 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:13:30 AM EST
I don't think that counts as a talking point.

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I know, I know... by MohammedNiyalSayeed (3.00 / 0) #76 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 07:36:15 AM EST

I promise, I'll do better to give you something to chew on in the future. Some of the time.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Mmm ... Linkin Park ... by Canthros (6.00 / 1) #82 Mon Aug 30, 2004 at 03:53:20 PM EST
Also, I would like to point out that Kerry has the moral convictions of a Bill Clinton, the economics of Karl Marx, and the blistering charisma of Bob Dole.

Also, I find that I like ear candy at least as much as anything of intellectual or artistic value. And by ear candy, I mostly mean intellectually vacuous, overproduced tripe.

Also, also. I'm still not here, but I couldn't let Mr. s12's carping pass unmolested.

*lurks*

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I'm not here, man.




molester (nt) by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #83 Tue Aug 31, 2004 at 02:07:04 AM EST
Carping? Man, I keep missing these things..

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I was for the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and remain so. — MNS
[ Parent ]

Those Kids and Their Music | 74 comments (74 topical, 2 hidden) | Trackback