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bill's inaccurate superman speech

By infinitera (Sun May 23, 2004 at 02:47:49 PM EST) (all tags)

Bill singles out Superman above all other masked heros, as someone who was born Noble but has to create the alter ego of Clark Kent to fit in, whereas other heros put on the mask to hide their human failings or escape them. I think Bill/Tarentino are off the mark. Batman is the true persona of Wayne, and not only is he a more Noble than Superman could ever hope to be, but he is also a man possessed with a singular moral clarity. Superman is an enforcer of his adopted American Way, whereas Batman is a principled vigilante, believing that laws change, but justice is justice. Comparing the Bride to Superman is denying her overcoming of human frailty and fickleness, the very things that lead her to victory. Superman never has to deal with these, so his deeds are not [necessarily] indicative of his Nobility of character.

Of course, this could just be an intentional revelation of a character flaw in Bill, one that very adroitly leads to his death.

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bill's inaccurate superman speech | 46 comments (46 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback

also, by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #1 Sun May 23, 2004 at 02:53:06 PM EST

It seems sacrilegious to just discard those swords. 3 of them!

Are you old enough to remember Superman II? by lm (6.00 / 1) #2 Sun May 23, 2004 at 03:11:02 PM EST

It was the only good one of the Superman movies. But I think that the portrayal of Superman in that movie is perhaps what Tarantino had in mind.

But I could be wrong. I haven't seen any of the Bill movies.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic

bill specifically talks about comics [nt] by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #3 Sun May 23, 2004 at 03:13:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Off topic: by blixco (6.00 / 1) #5 Sun May 23, 2004 at 03:46:34 PM EST

love the sig. I may have to get that made into a bumper sticker.
---------------------------------
I get by on automatic
No surprise at all

[ Parent ]

in texas? by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #15 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:48:14 PM EST

You just want to pick a fight. Admit it! ;)

[ Parent ]

: There's a texas democratic party by blixco (6.00 / 1) #44 Mon May 24, 2004 at 01:51:32 AM EST

bumper sticker that reads: "Texas politics: a full contact sport."
---------------------------------
I get by on automatic
No surprise at all

[ Parent ]

there's nothing noble about batman. by rmg (6.00 / 1) #4 Sun May 23, 2004 at 03:43:10 PM EST

bruce wayne is a sick man whose mind is overcome by childhood trauma. batman is about a displaced revenge. his justice is his own.

that is not to say superman is such a noble character either. his motives are strictly moral. he is an everyman endowed with the power to rise above his ovine nature.

the nature of popular culture precludes any display of nobility in its pure form. nobility is a bitter pill for the comic reading public whose lives are spent dominated by their aristocratic jock superiors, whether they be of the sporting or business variety.

a noble hero would be driven by a lust for combat. his respect for law would preclude vigilantism and his balanced psyche would be completely incompatible with the nerdy revenge fantasies behind batman. in any case, the nerds would hate him and the jocks have better things to do than read comics.

[t]rolling retards conversation, period.

ihbt by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #6 Sun May 23, 2004 at 03:50:06 PM EST

Tarentino plays with notions of nobility. Your comment is ignorant.

[ Parent ]

tarentino? by rmg (6.00 / 1) #8 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:14:29 PM EST

isn't that the pulp fiction guy?

[t]rolling retards conversation, period.
[ Parent ]

no, by infinitera (3.40 / 5) #10 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:21:46 PM EST

Just the dead nigger storage guy.

[ Parent ]

that offends me. by rmg (6.00 / 1) #11 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:31:24 PM EST

we've had this discussion before. you have no right to use that word!

[t]rolling retards conversation, period.
[ Parent ]

: i know what sco stands for by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #12 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:34:42 PM EST

Kill Whitey!

[ Parent ]

Also it seems that Superman by Orion Blastar (6.00 / 3) #7 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:13:49 PM EST

is lying about his US Citizenship, being born in space and all and landing on Earth as an infant. How noble is someone who claims to be a citizen, yet was born in space or another planet far away from the country he claims as his birth?

Now some argue that the space ship was a womb and when it opened he was born. Such is nonsense talk.

He also pretends to be a human, but he is really a Kryptonian. Also his annual Phsyicals must be faked as they cannot even draw blood with a normal needle to test him. Perhaps some doctor in Smallville fakes the exam each year?

So by logic, Superman is a liar, a cheat, and a fraud. How noble can he be then?

Batman verses Superman can be answered by that "The Dark Knight Returns" graphic novel. Batman was Kryptonite and knows how to use it. Batman also knows Superman's secrets, and has the technology to defeat him.

Oddly, Batman has no super powers. He is a skilled detective, escape artist, martial artist, scientist, electrical engineer, and businessman. He has those "Wonderful toys" in his utility belt and he found a way to make them small and then large again when he needs them. Batman also has cars, boats, helicopters, motorcycles, planes, and other vehicles at his disposal. Plus Batman has allies like Robin, Batgirl, Nightwing, (sometimes Catwoman), and others who can fight by his side.

Superman is a solo fighter and has all the fighting skills of someone's butler. Superman knows no martial arts, and relies on his super strength to knock someone out, or use his powers.

Superman's resources are limited, but Batman's resources are almost unlimited. Batman is a billionare with contacts that Superman wish he had.

I did not see the Kill Bill movies, yet, I wish to someday. I figure that Bill was flawed in his discription of Superman, and this is part of what led to his eventual downfall.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium

re: wealth by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #9 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:20:14 PM EST

Batman is a billionare

Wayne as a socialite and businessman is an act. Sure, he makes deals, but he's not known as a tough or shrewd sort of guy, only a well-meaning one. He finds people to delegate authority to so that Wayne can remain a silver-spooned know-nothing.

[ Parent ]

solo by martingale (6.00 / 2) #13 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:42:17 PM EST

Clearly, Superman isn't only a solo fighter. He often fights alongside the Superfriends, and lets Aquaman do some of his dirty work in those cases. And it bothers me that he would want to hide the fact that the late inhabitants of Kripton were communists.
--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]

communism is anti-american [nt] by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #14 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:46:41 PM EST

Most of Batman's friends are blue-collar types, or humanitarians of a sort.

[ Parent ]

which is why by martingale (6.00 / 1) #23 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:34:04 PM EST

Superman's keeping this secret is doubly troubling ;)

That's interesting about Batman, though, but isn't this one of the differences between Marvel and DC? Marvel often has these professional science types as heroes, ie white collar workers. (I'm not very well versed in comic books, mind)
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]

eh? superman is also dc by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #25 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:35:51 PM EST

But he also doesn't really go out of his way to cultivate friendships.

[ Parent ]

: never mind, I was wrong. by martingale (6.00 / 2) #27 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:39:27 PM EST

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]

Yes but by Orion Blastar (6.00 / 1) #45 Tue May 25, 2004 at 08:18:05 AM EST

Superman doesn't fight as a team, he usually just plows through the super villians and lets Aquaman do his own thing, etc.

Batman and Robin aren't called the Dynamic Duo for nothing, they work as a team.

That is Krypton, like Star Trek, they eliminated capitalism and money. Superman also is not a capitalist, he works as a reporter for a small salary, and does not use his real talents to earn money. Clark Kent does not live up to his potential, and pretends to be inferior to what he really is. Just another human working a dead-end job. After all, when was the last time he had a promotion since 1920? 84 years working the same job position, now that's pathetic!

Batman or rather Bruce Wayne, uses his real talents to make money with his business, often delegating tasks to others so he can have the free time to put on the cape and cowl to fight evil. He then uses his money to buy or make those wonderful toys. Bruce Wayne is a capitalist and went from being a millionare to being a billionare. He gave himself promotions and grew his company and created a lot of jobs and helped the economy. So in theory, Batman contributed a lot more to society than Superman ever did.

Besides Superman calls Aquaman "Fishface" behind his back! ;)

Oh BTW Batman also can afford his own private space shuttle, space station (he paid for the one that the Justice League uses), and could in theory hire his own army to fight crime.

Batman also plans for the worst, when the JLA went MIA or rouge, Batman had the Teen Titians standing by for a replacement. Batman also has plans to take out each member of the JLA, should they go rouge and need to be taken down.

Also Batman has access to technology to create:
Super Computers
Time Portals
Dimensional Gateways
Antidotes for any poison known to humanity

Many other things as well. So what can Superman do if someone poisoned Lois Lane? Or someone got zapped to another dimension or time. Or they need a really fast super computer to crack a code? Nothing, because when those things happen, he is powerless and goes whining to Batman, begging for his help.

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium
[ Parent ]

Batman has the greatest superpower of them all by lm (6.00 / 2) #42 Mon May 24, 2004 at 12:52:22 AM EST

It's called the bottomless checking account. Without endless amounts of cash to pay for his bat-toys, he'd lose three quarters of the battles he's undertaken.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

methinks not by joh3n (6.00 / 1) #16 Sun May 23, 2004 at 04:55:53 PM EST

Wayne vs batman I view as actually being two personalities. Batman chooses Wayne to be his 'good cop' persona: the rich kind guy who funds orphanages and pets kittens. Superman chooses Kent purely as disguise (and is created to be part comic fodder, and to give any suspense to the charaters 'unmasking').

I think Bill was right: Superman was born in Supermans clothes, and chooses other clothes to hide. Batman was born a kid who then chose two suits, one of them has nifty gizmos though, and that's always fun.

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ph34r

he's batman-y with his friends though by infinitera (5.50 / 2) #17 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:07:23 PM EST

Wayne does not seem to be a real persona to him.

[ Parent ]

fair by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #18 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:12:27 PM EST

But I would argue he uses Wayne as good cop far more than superman does Kent. I think Bill' point was how the person was, is, always shall be. This is the case for Superman, but not for Batman.

How about we just admit that we like chicks with samurai swords?

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

i would argue that wayne is a good cop.. by infinitera (5.50 / 2) #19 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:16:19 PM EST

For the sake of fitting in, not for the sake of expressing some inner desire. He's a dark fellow.

[ Parent ]

I disagree by joh3n (6.00 / 1) #21 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:28:55 PM EST

the good works Wayne does is not just about fitting in, it's about penance. Kent exists to fit in, and only to fit in. Wayne seems to me to exist to counter some deep seeded guilt Waybe/Batman feels.

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

and people say comics have no depth [nt] by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #24 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:34:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: preach it, brother. preach it. [ou -1] by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #29 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:42:58 PM EST

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

to rephrase my point by infinitera (5.50 / 2) #28 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:42:48 PM EST

I don't see Superman enduring Pai Mei's training (if Pai Mei was also a Kryptonian or something of comparable power), whereas Wayne would do it without complaint. Bill tells the Bride she is gifted, deserving - but it is humility and perseverance that have gotten her this far, not aptitude. All the vipers had aptitude. Bill tries to recharm her from a false premise.

[ Parent ]

I don't think Bill was trying to re-charm her by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #30 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:50:15 PM EST

'before this tale of .... can come to an end'

Bill knew he was gonna have 1/2 of the 2 of them dead.

As for humility, that's where I think the 2nd movie gained brilliance above the cool level the first one set. Humility played little role in the first film (aside possibly from the dialogue with Hanzo, but that get's nullified by her threatening with the name of Bill). Humility, at least to me, only comes to the forefront in the second movie, and is made perfect in the scene with her on the floor of the bathroom.

As for batman taking the training without question: I dunno, I always saw him as a self trained guy. Guidance from experts, yes, but full and utter submission, no. My memory with the history is vague though, so I could be wrong.

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

uh, it wasn't a threat by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #31 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:52:20 PM EST

She promised him it would be used against Bill, didn't she? Which is why he agreed. People don't like Bill.

[ Parent ]

threat...guilt, 2 sides, same coin. by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #34 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:05:30 PM EST

I think the point was simple: he wouldn't give her the sword. She says it's Bill. He gives the sword as penance. Se threatens him with hisown guilt.

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

er, uh by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #37 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:07:18 PM EST

Se= she hisown=his own. Christ, I need to go back to enabling preview by default.

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

: really, by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #41 Sun May 23, 2004 at 10:48:08 PM EST

Where is TheophileEscargot when you need him. Now there is a voice of authority on the Dark Knight, et al.

[ Parent ]

are you a lapsed catholic by any chance? :P by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #38 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:09:26 PM EST

All this guilt-talk..

[ Parent ]

: heh by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #39 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:17:23 PM EST

not lapsed, but Irish..... double :P
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ph34r
[ Parent ]

in terms of batman's ninja skillz by infinitera (5.50 / 2) #32 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:01:00 PM EST

He was the perfect student.

[ Parent ]

: I stand corrected. word. by joh3n (6.00 / 2) #35 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:05:50 PM EST

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ph34r
[ Parent ]

dunno 'bout you by martingale (6.00 / 1) #20 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:22:14 PM EST

But I ain't too hot about chicks with samurai swords. There's the small matter of John Wayne Bobbit that comes to mind. Hmm, no, definitely no samurai swords, thank you.
--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]

swords don't snip penii by infinitera (6.00 / 2) #22 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:31:06 PM EST

Scorned women snip penii.

[ Parent ]

: scorned woman: by martingale (6.00 / 1) #26 Sun May 23, 2004 at 05:37:32 PM EST

"You can have your penis back when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers".
Oh wait, I should call my agent, that's a pr0n movie pitch.
--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]

I saw Hellboy last night. by ti dave (6.00 / 1) #33 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:03:00 PM EST

It was good. I liked it.

I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The important question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. --W.S. Burroughs

hellboy wasn't playing anymore in my area :( by infinitera (6.00 / 1) #36 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:06:19 PM EST

That was the other movie I wanted to see.

[ Parent ]

: dollar theatre second circuit by ti dave (6.00 / 1) #40 Sun May 23, 2004 at 06:21:28 PM EST

Well, $3.50 to be precise, but still damned cheap.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The important question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. --W.S. Burroughs
[ Parent ]

I wrote an article on K5 on this subject by Rogerborg (6.00 / 2) #43 Mon May 24, 2004 at 01:43:32 AM EST

But rusty has already won, and I can't find it any more. You'll just have to imagine it. Swoosh! KaPOW!

-
Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.

Of course by Orion Blastar (3.00 / 0) #46 Tue May 25, 2004 at 10:09:28 AM EST

if Bill Gates used his money the way Bruce Wayne does, Bill would have taken over some third world countries.

Hey hey, why don't we outsource the fixing up of Iraq to Microsoft? It will give them something to do. They could use those extra MSN CDs to shingle houses with. :)

Seriously, yeah, Batman can buy his way to victory. Make that Bat Tank that launches anti-aircraft smart missiles loaded with Kryptonite to take out Superman. Then control it remotely, and have dozens more standing by in case Superman rips it open. ;)

"I drank what?" - Socrates after drinking the Conium

bill's inaccurate superman speech | 46 comments (46 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback