Print Story 1.1. HOW-TO : Graph an Axiom
Diary
By wah (Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:15:17 AM EST) (all tags)
[first in a series]

The purpose of this work is an attempt to defend my attempt to 'graph an axiom'.  The purpose of that defense is that I am going to try and answer an impossible question. The purpose of doing so is to try and help you understand a number of concepts.  The two we are going to start with are known as 'infinity' and 'zero' (∞ & 0).

The act of 'graphing an axiom' is particularly useful in this context because this work is an attempt to redefine the concept of 'numbers' themselves, and doing such requires using additional logic from an external system.  The external system (relative to numbers) we will be using is called 'reality'.  This is, IMHO, an improvement on the old external system used to define numbers, that we call 'fingers and toes'.

What if you started, before you counted your fingers and toes, with the knowledge that Einstein's "spacetime" was an accepted description of reality?  What kind of number system would you want to use to help explain it?
Essentially the point of attempting to do so is that, IMHO, the world is in need of a new number system.  Our old one is lacking, and the even older one is lacking even more.


In order to define the concept of "numbers," our first act is going to be to try and find the limits of such a number system.  If we want to define the entire realm of existence using numbers, it would be a good idea if the numbers themselves were capable of expressing such a wide range of potential situations.

We are going to take a slight moment now, and try to help put your mind at ease.  Approaching such concepts as the ones mentioned previously and the one that will soon be forthcoming can be an intimidating experience.  Hence, it is hoped that by pointing out how this intimidation is 'natural', we can limit the damage it will cause.  The following is from this article, which is an excellent introduction to one of the concepts that is going to be half of our axiom.  If you feel like you need a 'warm-up' article, that would be a good one.

The word after "infinity" in my dictionary is "infirm," a definition of which is "weak of mind." This is how many of us who are not mathematically inclined feel upon contemplating infinity.
(To see how mathematicians regard infinity, see Working With Infinity: A Mathematical Perspective, which is also an excellent warm-up article.)

To continue with the quote.

We feel weak because our finite minds can only go so far with the concept, and because every time we think we're on the verge of securing even a shadowy understanding, we're tripped up by something. A friend of mine once told me that trying to hold her hyperactive toddler was like trying to hold a live salmon. Infinity is like that for us "infirm ones": slippery as a salmon, forever eluding our grasp.
Note, many of the excerpts in this work are available without interruption here.  Again, since this work is partially at attempt to bring the two perspectives (philosophical and mathematical) together, it would probably be worth your time to read both of the introductory texts.

Before we dive in, let's take a moment to remember to breathe and then take a plunge into deep thought.

For many of us uncomfortable with infinity, the word number can be defined as "that which makes numb."
Hence, one can with a nod to Marx, call the the rest of this work "Opiates for the math's."

As this is not intentionally a work of humor, that will be my last attempt at such endeavors.  To continue from the philosophical perspective...

We may think, for starters, that we're well on our way to getting a sense of infinity with the notion of no biggest number. There's always an ever larger number, right? Well, no and yes. Mathematicians tell us that any infinite set--anything with an infinite number of things in it--is defined as something that we can add to without increasing its size. The same holds true for subtraction, multiplication, or division. Infinity minus 25 is still infinity; infinity times infinity is--you got it--infinity. And yet, there is always an even larger number: infinity plus 1 is not larger than infinity, but 2infinity is.
The concept of the 'exponent' is going to be crucial to understand before we continue.  If you have forgotten from your schooling, or have yet to be introduced to the concept, a short refresher is here. [we'll wait....o.k.]

'Infinity' is a strange concept in mathematics because while one can imagine a single infinity and how subtracting or multiplying it doesn't change it, it is more difficult to see how ∞ is quite a bit more.  From the mathematical perspective linked to earlier.

Also, as I've mentioned, there are essentially two kinds of mathematics. One of them is known as intuitionism, which is the less standard one. Intuitionists, unlike other mathematicians, don't want to essentially go beyond the very first orders of infinity. They don't allow infinities of higher order. And they show that within intuitionism, you can develop practically all the mathematics that you need. Of those two different mathematical theories, one allows in a whole bunch of infinities, the other doesn't. Yet they derive pretty much the same kind of results.

Once again you see that the philosophical question--What kind of infinities exist?--is not really answered. It's left as a philosophical puzzle. I think it's fair to say that mathematics shows you what's coherent, but what's actually true about the universe is left a philosophical question. In fact, mathematics has shown us during the 20th century that you can have all sorts of mathematical theories out there that are compatible with all sorts of possible universes. I think the philosophical puzzle remains where it was 2,500 years ago and is likely to remain that way.[Dr. Reviel Netz]

So now that we know the problem we are trying to deal with, and how to illustrate with a simple graphed axiom how multiple infinities can exist and be used in conjunction with one another.

First we are going to start with a simple axiom.  This axiom, I can only say, came to me a few years back as I was thinking about stuff. Essentially it is derived from the question, "What is halfway between infinity and zero?"

The answer I came up with is 1 (one).  This the first step in 'graphing' the axiom.  It just takes a bit of non-linear thinking.

When graphed this looks like so. 

As shown in the drawing, "Infinity" is placed as one axis.  "Zero" is placed on the other, and basic N-squared curve shows that a line with a slope of 1 precisely divides each end of the spectrum of all possible numbers.

Now, there are two assumptions inherent in this first step.  Those are that both 0 and ∞ are not numbers themselves, but the limits of numbers.  This is something of a change from traditional number systems where 'zero' is considered a real number.  As is evident from the above picture, the curved line, which can be drawn simply by taking any number (N) and multiplying it by itself (N=N2 and repeating this process ad infinitum, will never reach the limit.  There is no number that can be multiplied by itself to get zero as the result.  Even under the current rules of multiplication, there is no way to get zero as a result unless one starts with it in the equation.  Hence, zero is NOT a real number in the number system we are currently exploring. 

Inherent in the graph is also the basic idea that numbers, given the 'power law' will trend towards the limits of ∞ or 0 depending on which side of '1' they are currently found.   Hence, one can draw the conclusion that the number 1 is precisely halfway between the limits of infinity and zero.  Additionally, this gives rise to the equation, ∞ * 0 = 1 (infinity times zero = 1)*.

As mentioned, this is a major change in the conception of numbers. It is easy to see how a concept like 'zero' was originally introduced. After all, one can hold up 3 fingers.  5 fingers and 2 toes, or even 10 fingers and NO toes.  We have always called that 'no toes' zero, and then later continued to build upon the mistake.  "No toes" is completely indisquishable from "no fingers", "no kittens", "no infinities", and even "no people".  As such, it is a bit outside the realm of rational thought, and should be treated as such.  Hence it, like infinity, becomes a limit for a number system rather than an integral "trump card", where anything multiplied by nothing equals nothing.  Multiplying by nothing assumes that one can start with nothing, and since the philosophy of the writer is antagonistic to the concept of 'ex nihilo', zero is not considered a real number for our purposes.

Note: zero has been confusing people for a good long while.

We now come to considering the first appearance of zero as a number. Let us first note that it is not in any sense a natural candidate for a number. From early times numbers are words which refer to collections of objects. Certainly the idea of number became more and more abstract and this abstraction then makes possible the consideration of zero and negative numbers which do not arise as properties of collections of objects. Of course the problem which arises when one tries to consider zero and negatives as numbers is how they interact in regard to the operations of arithmetic, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. In three important books the Indian mathematicians Brahmagupta, Mahavira and Bhaskara tried to answer these questions.
[source]

As most are well aware, division by zero has long been one of math's Achilles heels.  In this particular version of it's history, we skip over 500 years before making anything close to progress.

Bhaskara wrote over 500 years after Brahmagupta. Despite the passage of time he is still struggling to explain division by zero. He writes:-
A quantity divided by zero becomes a fraction the denominator of which is zero. This fraction is termed an infinite quantity. In this quantity consisting of that which has zero for its divisor, there is no alteration, though many may be inserted or extracted; as no change takes place in the infinite and immutable God when worlds are created or destroyed, though numerous orders of beings are absorbed or put forth.
So Bhaskara tried to solve the problem by writing n/0 = ∞. At first sight we might be tempted to believe that Bhaskara has it correct, but of course he does not. If this were true then 0 times ∞ must be equal to every number n, so all numbers are equal. The Indian mathematicians could not bring themselves to the point of admitting that one could not divide by zero. Bhaskara did correctly state other properties of zero, however, such as 02 = 0, and √0 = 0.
Note: The reference article then goes on a tangent about Mayan mathematics, which was base 20 rather than 10, which is to say, they used all their digits, instead of just their hands.  Neither system used general relativity to define the numbers themselves (as the concept wouldn't show up for a number of centuries). By 'relative' numbers, I am describing a situation where numbers do not exist in a vacuum.  They cannot be created 'ex nihilo'.  You must start with a number and work from there.  Hence we have N2 as a more natural number system than simply N (i.e. A non-linear process where that which exists first effects itself, rather than a linear progression of digits numbering things that exist in and of themselves...fingers and toes, for example).  This also removes the problem of situation like that of the diagonal of a square, and points to a resolution of some latent issues involving 'meta-physics'. 

More on 'meta-physics' a bit later, but the general argument of "Quantum Philsophy" is that they are no longer needed.  We have enough of a grasp of physics itself that we can do away with most of the 'meta' parts [such as those mentioned here].  Such concepts have become extraneous and can be removed post haste by applying Occam's razor and losing nothing that is necessary for understanding.

NEXT SECTION: Extending the Axiom to Higher Dimensions

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1.1. HOW-TO : Graph an Axiom | 31 comments (31 topical, 7 hidden) | Trackback
Riiiiight.... by Hide The Hamster (3.00 / 1) #1 Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 11:28:06 AM EST
this is perhaps the most mathematically unsound thing pretending to be viable theory that I have ever seen in my life.  You friends with Bob Lazar?  Did you meet John Titor?
Co-founder of the Hoosey Wine and Spirits Kabal


Obviously you don't ever read sci.math by the (3.00 / 1) #7 Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 12:13:20 PM EST
This looks pretty sound compared to the stuff in there.

--
The Definite Article
[ Parent ]

Breaking News Alert: by spcmanspiff (3.00 / 0) #16 Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:11:43 PM EST
Breadbasket of Civilization Chock-Full of Six-Fingered Mutants
*Proof is in the Base-12 Number System, Says Noted Mathematical Hobbyiest



midpoint by garlic (3.00 / 0) #17 Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 01:16:24 PM EST
1 is the midpoint between N and 1/N only on a logarithmic scale, not a linear scale.

Suck it


Ahem by CrocoStimpy (3.00 / 0) #30 Fri Nov 19, 2004 at 06:18:58 PM EST
Infinity * 0 = 1

Infinity * 2 = Infinity

(Infinity * 2) * 0 = 1

(Infinity * 0) * 2 = 1

1 * 2 = 1

2 = 1

Whee!

[ Parent ]

I've addressed this before by wah (1.00 / 2) #31 Sun Nov 21, 2004 at 03:53:55 PM EST
you are making an axiomatic assumtion to say that ∞ * 2 = ∞.

It doesn't make any sense, outside of that assumption.

You are trying to mix the the concepts, so it is not terribly suprising you don't get what you think you should.
-- yes, I am. no, I am not. where does the difference lay?
[ Parent ]

attempted comment by martingale (3.00 / 1) #20 Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 08:42:33 PM EST
The purpose of this comment is an attempt to answer your attempt to defend your attempt to 'graph an axiom'.

.

Unfortunately, I must report that the attempt has failed. I shall attempt to attempt to answer again in the future, if I am not tempted into politics before then.


--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$


Excellent by Rogerborg (6.00 / 1) #21 Thu Nov 04, 2004 at 10:01:33 PM EST
diary.

-
Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.


You said by Dr H0ffm4n (4.50 / 2) #24 Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 05:24:56 AM EST
Since your argument is based on a misunderstanding of both maths and philosophy.

I understand that stating axioms is easier than actually trying to prove them.

How is that not an understanding of maths and philosophy?

It's too tedious to try and show you why your conception is wrong other than pointing you to some beginner's FOM and philosphy books.

That's because it has grown out of such works.

Your conception of maths is heavily Platonic and no philosopher worth his salt nowadays works that way.

That is curious, because I had thought the entire thing was based off the work on Einstein.  I reject the Copenhagen interpretation, but only because it says that it all means nothing.  This is, to my mind, silliness of the highest caliber.

Most "philosophers" in this day and age seem happy to rehash the work of others and focus and continuingly retreating minutiae.

Plato spoke of forms, and I speak of forms, but rather than just pulling stuff out of the air, I look at how things act in feefall.  I look at how we all started our lives, and I look at the field of magnetics surrounding our planet.

Finally, I think there are some simple ways to relate them all, and such things can be explained simply to children.

But, yes, I don't think anyone has yet taken the time to understand what I am saying, hence, making it easier to dismiss.




Let's start at the beginning by Dr H0ffm4n (4.50 / 2) #25 Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 05:38:19 AM EST
As this may take some time lets start with some simple questions. We're only discussing maths, physics and maybe their immediate surrounding philosophies here, e.g. epistemology. As such, lets set the level at which we're going to be conversing.

  1. Is maths invented or discovered? What about physics?
  2. What level is your understanding of philosophy? Have you any aquaintance whatsoever with the ideas or works of Kant, Peano, Hilbert, Frege, Russell, Frankel, Gödel, Wittgenstein, Tarski or Feferman?
  3. What level is your understanding of maths? Do you actually have any background in the mathematical justifications and uses of transfinite cardinals & ordinals, the set theoretic or categorical definitions of natural numbers, rationals and reals?
  4. What level is your understanding of modern physics, i.e. have you read any critique of Einstein, QM etc beyond pop-sci level? Do you have or are you studying for a degree in physics? If not, what is your reading level on the subject? Have you actually read any degree level books on physics?


[ Parent ]

It is a beautiful place to start. by wah (3.00 / 2) #26 Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 09:23:39 AM EST
We're only discussing maths, physics and maybe their immediate surrounding philosophies here, e.g. epistemology.

Then you shall have to excuse me if I step out of bounds.  I believe maths, physics and their epistemology to be the stuff of life.  I believe them to be the source of knowledge.  But my knowledge is mainly ...about them.  It is not of them.  But even that is not true, as my understandings is rooted in my personal knowledge of them.  I've been doing what most would consider 'higher' math (i.e. almost everything that everyone who does NOT specifically study math in college would know) since about the age of 8 or 10.  When I got to college, I had a calc teacher I could barely understand, and so many more interesting things to pursue (many of which had skirts, some of which were surreal, and others that involved exercising my aggression [football, gaming]),

As such, I'd been 'doing math' for about 10 years as some who 'gets it', but then ran into a wall that I felt was artificially inclined...if you can take my metaphor.  So I dropped it, and headed off in another direction. 

I have no doubt you are most likely familiar with many maths beyond my own, current, knowledge...but I would like more proof of this, if you don't mind.  Some around these parts do no like to become known, as I have no problem with such, I am at a disadvantage.  I think you will find my demeanor to improve dramatically when I know with whom I am speaking online.  I've been hanging out with 'this crowd' for a number of years...but not on this URL.  If you would like to send me an email confirming a RL identity, or just posting it here, I would be most appreciative.

So anyway...now that we have something of a preface completed.

1. Is maths invented or discovered? What about physics?

Math is invented to explain discoveries.   Discoveries force invention (like necessity) of math to explain them, inasmuch as they destroy the maths previously used to explain the discoveries. Sometimes the mathematical explanation comes first, sometimes the discovery.  I would call it something of an 'unfolding', but now we are bordering on the poetic.  see: also, my next diary entry on 'folding'.  I thought of it while thinking about this.

Physics is simply about calculating the way of things.  We give words and values to things that are, we have ideas how they work, we create symbols to properly express those ideas. We test, we refine, we condense, we evolve..our tools/ideas/equations.  We can, using these tools, probe history and predict the future...to an extent.  

2. What level is your understanding of philosophy? Have you any aquaintance whatsoever with the ideas or works of Kant, Peano, Hilbert, Frege, Russell, Frankel, Gödel, Wittgenstein, Tarski or Feferman?

I would say that I have 'an acquaintance whatsoever' with the idea of most of them...minus Peano, Frege, Tarski and Feferman.  I find many philosophers of the old school (pre 20th century) to be fine in their logic, and lacking in the data with which they present it.  They are, quite often, speculating about thing we know today.  Also, after I felt I had a pretty good grasp on what the problem was and how to solve it, I stopped reading full works and would simply attempt to grasp single concepts of great authors. 

Also, and I should be clear on this, I found my college professors to be more of mind washers on the subjects and not mind openers.  I wanted to argue from the get-go and never quite got up to speed ...the other way.  I have a strangely intuitive sense of things, and it is a talent I have refined through a good bit of work and study.  If you think there is a particular bit, or passage or work by one of the authors you mention, by all means, point it out to me.  But to say simply, 'Go read some philosophy', I would most likely say, "I have, what do you not understand?." (there is still a bug of arrogance in my presentation...trust me...I come by it naturally).

One of the things I am working on as I present my work is tying it back to more traditional thinkers.  Most of it ties in quite nicely, but I use different words.  Also, just in case you haven't picked it up yet...part of the point of building the model off the concept of 'spacetime' rather than 'finger counting' is to use it later as an 'iconic language' that, shall we say, transcends the old concept of language.  There are 'nouns' and 'verbs', but they take the forms more of relationships than linear progressions. 

This is referred to in a paper I stumbled across the other day. (subspace logic). To wit:

In many of the abstract geometric models which have been
used to represent concepts and their relationships, regions
possessing some cohesive property such as convexity or linearity
have played a significant role. When the implication or
containment relationship is used as an ordering relationship in
such models, this gives rise to logical operators for which the
disjunction of two concepts is often larger than the set union
obtained in Boolean models. This paper describes some of
the characteristic properties of such broad non-distributive
composition operations and their applications to learning algorithms
and classification structures.
So, this is the thing that I am constructing which is called 'the model'.  It was only within the last year or so that I learned there were a number of mathematical curiosities about my choice of which object to use for the representation of meaning, and building a new concept of the "big words" [love, justice, death, life, god, etc.]

In my personal discussions with various people regarding these subjects, I had found so often that the friction of misunderstanding would hinge upon a single conception, that I realized a different language entirely would be needed if we wanted to communicate such concepts across cultures and around the globe.   

I think Wittgenstein mentioned some stuff on 'the problem of language'.  No quotes spring to mind that encapsulate his understanding, but that is my general understanding of his gist.

Also, as should be clear by now...I'm on the applied reality side of the 'mathematical theory' dichotomy, which is most likely somewhat hard to swallow considering some of my other statements on this site.

3. What level is your understanding of maths? Do you actually have any background in the mathematical justifications and uses of transfinite cardinals & ordinals, the set theoretic or categorical definitions of natural numbers, rationals and reals?

Since I would have to either look up or induce what you mean by 'transfinite cardinals' and 'ordinal'...you have me there.  After I look it up, I would have to say...

each 'line' in the model is an ordinal set defined as 'while not 0 or &infing; let n = n * n' (for any n) A set S is an ordinal if and only if S is totally ordered with respect to set containment and every element of S is also a subset of S. [wikipedia]

Or at least that's my reading.

As to 'cardinality' [wikipedia]...the cardinal number of the model would be the total number of "lines" that one wishes to use to produce a model for a given circumstance or 'reality'.  (Since mathematics is often concerned with infinite objects, a study of cardinality tries to discuss the size of infinite sets.)  This discussed in section 1.2 where the model is extended into higher dimensions.  As each line is rotated around the center, another cardinality is introduced (I think...again...I'm just reading the internet and trying to make sense of something I understand using different, more basic, words).

4. What level is your understanding of modern physics, i.e. have you read any critique of Einstein, QM etc beyond pop-sci level? 

No.  I don't know of any that are accessible to those without higher lever degrees.  I have read a book about quantum decoherence...as you might guess by the title of it..but without a firm modern mathematical foundation, most of that work is greek to me.

Do you have or are you studying for a degree in physics?

No, at least not formally.  Generally, I have most of the understanding I need to go forward with what I've got so far.  Yes, I should and am, studying a bit of this, but I have to write now.  Unfortunately the last few generations of physicists and mathematicians have, IMHO, secluded themselves from the world and kept in the dark about the meaning of their work.

Hence, I think my position is not just teaching a whole bunch more people what to do and not why it could be worthwhile.

Have you actually read any degree level books on physics?

Again, no, I have only one degree level degree, and it is not in physics.  Later, I went out in the world to make sense of it.  Now I have, and am in the process of translating this back into the language they speak in the ivory towers.  Also, I would like to translate it into the language of the child, and simplify things, and help the world understand what we are, where we are, and why we are.

It is my humble opinion that the answers to these questions are self-evident, but are not so when ones believes in Copenhagen...at least as far as my understanding goes.

Long enough answer for ya?

:-)

(sorry for typos)

--
-It's hard to explain to a kid [how they have] done something wrong when you are smirking.  hehe, very true my friend.
-- yes, I am. no, I am not. where does the difference lay?
[ Parent ]

OK, let's start with maths by Dr H0ffm4n (5.00 / 1) #27 Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 11:55:08 AM EST
Since you see maths as an invention, then numbers cannot exist independently of our conceptions of them. You would never discover a new type of number, but invent one to solve previously insoluble problems. This appears to be the tack that you are taking with this article. That wouldn't be a problem if I could find any explicit definition of the problem you are trying to solve. What explicitly is lacking in the old number systems? What questions do they not cope with? Your main objection seems to be that historically counting has been seen as the basis of number systems rather than spacial (or space-time) measures. Natural numbers cope admirably with counting, reals cope admirably with measuring. IMHO that is. Maybe I'm missing your point.

Your conceptions of the infinite (transfinite) seem to be muddled as you use the symbol ∞ as a limit but also in the set theoretical exponentiation notation. This conflates different ideas of the infinite as limit and the ℵ's as cardinals and ω's as ordinal which have very precise, but different meanings. The short hand we us in maths conflate these too sometimes but the meaning is usually set by context. It may be a valid line of research to read up on Cantor's set theory and Zermelo/Frankel set theory (ZFC) where the modern mathematical notions of the infinite are defined. They also serve as the most common bedrock logical foundation and justification for natural, rational, real and complex number systems. To criticise how and why we use number the way we do, you first have to understand their justifications.

All of the maths used in physics can be derived from intuitionist foundations. Weyl almost single handedly derived all of modern analysis (real & complex math) from first principles using only intuitionist methods. But do we really need to invent yet another way of looking at maths? Feferman is one of the most readable authors I have ever read on foundational issues.

---

I find many philosophers of the old school (pre 20th century) to be fine in their logic, and lacking in the data with which they present it.  They are, quite often, speculating about thing we know today.

Often, but not always. I know what you mean about arcane philosophers as working out stuff that seems obvious now but also waffling off on mystical mumbo jumbo too. To disregard all of their work is IMHO folly. How do you know that you are not simply re-inventing ideas that have long since being conclusively refuted? How do you justify the epistemology of modern natural sciences? On what basis do we believe Einstein's theories to be true? They have never been verified as the sole possible explanation of observations. They are merely consistent with a lot of observations. As you well know scientific theories come and go as evidence is found that first seem to confirm and the refute them. To base philosophy on any current scientific viewpoint (e.g. relativity or QM) is like building your house on sand foundations. Reading some background on Popper (falsifiability), Kuhn (paradigm shifts) and Feyerabend (science as a social activity) might help here.

---

Sorry, but it's late here in UKia and I have kids to get to school and a flight to catch tomorrow so must be off to bed.


[ Parent ]

yea well by wah (3.00 / 2) #28 Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 03:04:17 PM EST
Since you see maths as an invention, then numbers cannot exist independently of our conceptions of them.

Since numbers are our conception of them, it seems silly to try and concieve of numbers seperately than our understanding of numbers.  It would all be random noise without someone to give things names and others to agree upon what those names and symbols mean.

Anyway. I've read popper (and love his politics), I've read kuhn (and am using it as a guide), I might take a look at the other one.

this place is too antagonistic for actual discussion of concepts not endorsed by the state.   So I'm going to stop beating myself by attempting to do so.

If you would like to continue this, send me an email.  Otherwise...

later.

enjoy the day.

But do we really need to invent yet another way of looking at maths?

Have maths explained everything yet?  Why might that be, do you think?

I might have a clue, but this is obviously not the place to discuss such things.

Too many fragile egos about.

Ridicule I can take, censorship, I cannot.

peace.
-- yes, I am. no, I am not. where does the difference lay?
[ Parent ]

like I said... by wah (2.50 / 2) #29 Wed Nov 17, 2004 at 03:53:16 PM EST
have a good one.
-- yes, I am. no, I am not. where does the difference lay?
[ Parent ]

1.1. HOW-TO : Graph an Axiom | 31 comments (31 topical, 7 hidden) | Trackback