Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union   13 votes - 86 %
Leave the European Union   2 votes - 13 %
15 Total Votes
Schleswig-Holstein Question by jimgon (4.00 / 1) #1 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 08:52:09 AM EST
For enjoyable fiction concentrated on the Schleswig-Holstein question check out "Royal Fash" by Gerorge MacDonald Frasier. The book, not the movie, though the movie is enjoyable too.

Technician - "We can't even get decent physical health care. Mental health is like witchcraft here."
Wow by Dr Thrustgood (4.00 / 2) #2 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 08:58:19 AM EST
Not a single mention of the greatest threat of all: a vote for leave is a vote for PM Boris.

I mean, I know I'm prone to thinking the bloody thing is a Tory power struggle that's got somewhat out of hand.

I don't really see by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #3 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 09:22:03 AM EST
Why he would be any worse (or better) than David Cameron. Not sure he's even that likely, Tory MPs don't seem to vote much for flamboyant loners like Michael Heseltine etc.
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
[ Parent ]
Cameron's just a regular Tory arse. by Dr Thrustgood (4.00 / 3) #6 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 01:30:41 PM EST
For me, Boris is the most terrifying person in modern-day politics by a good margin. A nasty intelligence and agenda hidden by popular buffoonery - just terrifying.

YMMV, I guess.

[ Parent ]
Boris by Herring (4.00 / 1) #9 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 06:22:19 AM EST
Very difficult to tell what he really thinks - except that he thinks he wants power and will say anything to get it. Word on the street is that the night before he came out for Brexit, he had two speeches ready to go - one each way.

I have heard him described as "A stupid man pretending to be an intelligent man pretending to be a stupid man".

I can't help think that, even if Boris doesn't get the leadership after a Leave vote, someone from the "even nastier" wing of the party will.

You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

[ Parent ]
I find the Gove-Cummings axis... by Metatone (4.00 / 1) #17 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 06:39:18 PM EST
much more worrisome. (But that still puts me against Leave.)

They really are out to tear up a lot of institutions - and despite protestations, it's pretty clear they don't have the interests of the majority at heart.

[ Parent ]
Bismark's favor of unification by wumpus (4.00 / 1) #4 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 12:54:42 PM EST
appeared to entirely depend on whether Austria and the Habsburgs would run unified Germany or Prussia and himself. I'm guessing fighting Denmark was one more step in getting the upper hand on Austria.


Possibly somehow by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #5 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 01:14:48 PM EST
But Austria were fighting as his allies so it must have been something very subtle if so.
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?
[ Parent ]
Europe: The Struggle for Supremacy, 1453... by Metatone (4.00 / 1) #18 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 06:40:45 PM EST
by Brendan Simms is pretty good on the S-H thing, as I recall.

[ Parent ]
"Racism and politics in punk music" by lm (4.00 / 1) #7 Sun Jun 19, 2016 at 09:12:24 PM EST
Coming of age in the US midwest as a punk rocker in the 80s was an interesting experience.

In Ohio (at least outside of Cleveland) we didn't have any real gangs. I was hanging out in an alleyway after a concert one night and the police were sweeping through sending everyone home. Apparently a skinhead gang had come down from Detroit and were on the prowl. There were a LOT of them. No violence that I'm aware of ensued. But that was probably because most people heeded the advice of the police to go home.

One guy I knew was heavily into the Oi scene. He was an adoptee from Korea. He was probably just saying shit to make a scene but he was found of saying that if he met his birth parents he would kill them because they weren't Americans.

A guy that was a friend started getting into bands like Youth Defense League. He made me a mix tape. Most of the lyrics were pretty typical teenage angst meets jingoism. At the time I didn't realize that songs like 'Skinheads '88" were a reference to something besides the year 1988.

I could understand something of the Oi scene. It was a pretty big departure from middle America.

What I didn't get were the non-skinhead Nazi punks. It just seemed really fucked up.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
We did not get the racist punks in DCia. by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #10 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 07:01:42 AM EST
The punk scene here was extremely white, but fairly explicitly anti-racist.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
sometimes the fascists in Ohio weren't racist by lm (4.00 / 1) #21 Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 03:37:24 PM EST
We had one venue out in the 'burbs. At one point it was a private party spot installed on former farm land with a picnic shelter with a fireplace and attached toilets with running water. By the 80s it was pretty run down. But the owners were pretty friendly with DIY bands and quite a few underground shows got put on there.

The inside of the shelter was covered in graffiti.

One of the graffiti things was an epically long rant about how someday TRUE ANARCHY would come ONLY THOSE WITH TRUE STRENGTH would be able to survive and TRUE NATURAL SELECTION would finally be at play to reveal who the REAL ANARCHISTS were.

It was a bit disturbing.

I just came for the tunes and the mosh pit.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
I gather that by Herring (4.00 / 1) #13 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 07:34:11 AM EST
Telly Savalas is set to spearhead, an Oi revival down Whitechapel way.

(I do like the couplet from there: "Inspired by no-one, other groups bore us; How can you say we sound like Frazier Chorus?"

You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

[ Parent ]
I'm on the fence by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #8 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 06:17:21 AM EST
 Whether I vote leave it remain I will be asking myself if I'm doing the right thing

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
One of my great-grandfathers came to USia by wiredog (4.00 / 2) #11 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 07:03:21 AM EST
dodging the Prussian draft. He was from that border region. The family name changes spelling every couple of generations, depending on who had conquered the family farm most recently. They're currently Danish.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

Leave might be OK for me personally by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #12 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 07:11:56 AM EST
House price drop would be nice.

But my heart says Remain and the uncertainty and political bollocks for the next few years inclines me to vote Remain.

Not sure about EU army by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #15 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 10:01:51 AM EST
If we're in NATO, we're pretty much obliged to fight the Russians anyway.

[ Parent ]
I'm pretty strong on Remain... by Metatone (4.00 / 6) #19 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 06:59:19 PM EST
  1. My business will definitely be hit by Brexit - it simply will make selling services to the EU harder. (There's a reason why up to now the main Norwegian firm in my sector does most of its EU business through its UK subsidiary.)
  2. I have some friends who are in the UK as EU citizens. It's entirely possible that these people get a raw deal. I don't see that as a positive.
  3. As others have noted, the odds are this will empower a really odd set of blokes (Farage, Boris, Gove) and I can't see in them the required quality to negotiate a Leave plan that benefits us as a country. Further, there's nothing in them to suggest that they have any greater compassion for those outside their circle than George Osborne does. But a Leave vote will most likely put them in power for a long time - UKIP will get a big electoral boost as they campaign for repatriations and the like.
  4. I'm brown. I see no value in giving a victory to the racist side of Leave. Those at the top of Leave feel like they can ride the tiger. I doubt they are as competent as they think they are. They won't suffer for it - but people like me and mine will.
  5. I'm 40. I had some great times in my 20s working in other parts of Europe. I'd be a real bastard if I voted to take that away from young people now.
<shrug> Each to their own.

Reminds me of Quebec separation by marvin (4.00 / 1) #20 Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 01:09:29 AM EST
If you end up with "remain" winning, you'll get to play again every five years, with the same lies raised by the same people each time.

Speaking to EU regulation, Canada would be better off today had Harper been hobbled by something like EU rules over the past decade. Instead we saw a decade of unrestrained majority parliament driven by a corporate agenda, with scientists muzzled, degraded environmental rules, increased education costs, more income inequality, and reduced respect on the world stage after ignoring Kyoto and fighting on the wrong side of many other issues from asbestos to arms sales.

All of this and more can be yours with a simple leave vote. Westminster style parliaments lack effective checks and balances, so getting rid of the imperfect EU gives more opportunity for abuse of national powers.  Best of luck.