I will/would vote

To remain (and I am registered to vote)   3 votes - 30 %
To leave (and I am registered to vote)   2 votes - 20 %
To remain (and I am not registered/eligible to vote)   3 votes - 30 %
To leave (and I am not registered/eligible to vote)   2 votes - 20 %
 
10 Total Votes
Not sure how or if I'll vote by TheophileEscargot (4.00 / 1) #1 Thu Mar 03, 2016 at 11:38:29 PM EST
It seems like another instance of the great ideological battle of our time, neoliberal capitalism versus xenophobic nativism, and I'm not that keen on either side.

(See also: Hillary Clinton vs. Donald Trump.)
--
It is unlikely that the good of a snail should reside in its shell: so is it likely that the good of a man should?

even if you frame it like that by gmd (4.00 / 1) #19 Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 08:06:23 AM EST
I think I would still prefer nationalism to corporatism. I also wonder if the brexit supporters really are as xenophobic as the media likes to suggest? I am a hardcore anti-EU person, but have worked in several European countries, and frequently spend time and money there. I just don't approve of the "we know whats best for you", leftist/statist/elitism of the EU. Even if you accept the somewhat dubious alleged economic benefits of membership, the loss of democracy and accountability is too high a price to pay IMO.

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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
An interesting article by gmd (2.00 / 0) #20 Thu Jul 07, 2016 at 05:55:57 PM EST
That pretty much explains my Euroskepticism is here. 

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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
xenophobia and going abroad... by bobdole (2.00 / 0) #21 Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:54:36 AM EST
...not necessarily mutually exclusive. Spain is full of expats and tourists with nothing but disdain for the Spaniards, but they still go there..
-- The revolution will not be televised.
[ Parent ]
Don't understand why this is in moderation by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #2 Fri Mar 04, 2016 at 08:49:32 AM EST
Seems more like a reasonable thing to discuss even if you don't like the author

I have nothing against the author by anonimouse (4.00 / 2) #3 Fri Mar 04, 2016 at 02:49:23 PM EST
...but I wish he'd put a little more effort into his proposed front page story. 

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
[ Parent ]
Where are 32 active posters by georgeha (4.00 / 4) #12 Sun Mar 06, 2016 at 01:31:46 PM EST
going to come from, though?


[ Parent ]
/me responds many months afterwards by Phil Urich (4.00 / 1) #22 Sat Sep 10, 2016 at 06:00:00 PM EST
 ...good point.

[ Parent ]
I'm going to vote to stay in by anonimouse (2.00 / 0) #4 Fri Mar 04, 2016 at 02:52:39 PM EST
Because I like the idea of being able to work anywhere in the EU with minimal problems. I also like the idea of being able to live anywhere I like in Europe. I like (mostly) the European Convention on Human Rights.

There are a lot of problems with the EU, but the cohesive Europe it manages to bring together is far better than the issues that arise. 

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
ECHR is separate from EU membership. by gmd (4.00 / 1) #7 Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 11:58:17 AM EST
Being signed up to EHCR is a pre requisite for EU membership, however EU membership is not a pre-requisite for signing up to EHCR as far as I am aware.
 

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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
Surprisingly correct by Herring (2.00 / 0) #9 Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 07:11:55 PM EST
Although when you look at a list of countries that are signed up, well there are several who are more than a little suspect.

You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

[ Parent ]
ECHR by Oberon (2.00 / 0) #18 Tue May 31, 2016 at 08:54:37 AM EST
Some countries have more judgments go against them than others ....

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jan/27/european-court-human-rights-judgments

Data are from 2011. The graph seems to be broken but there's a table at the bottom. It's notable that Turkey, Russia and Ukraine have the most judgments, most of which conclude that there was a violation of human rights.


How now, mad spirit?
[ Parent ]
Poll needs more options: by Herring (4.00 / 4) #5 Fri Mar 04, 2016 at 07:04:32 PM EST
  • Leave the EU but stay in the EEA, EFTA and the Council of Europe
  • Leave the EU and EEA but stay within EFTA and the Council of Europe
  • Leave the EU, EEA and EFTA but stay in the Council of Europe
  • Leave the EU, EEA, EFTA, Council of Europe but stay within Eurovision
  • Leave the Council of Europe and Eurovision but stay within the EEA
  • Leave everything and become a wholly owned subsidiary of China
  • Leave the EU, the EEA, EFTA, Council of Europe, Eurovision and UEFA
  • I don't fucking know


You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

I'll vote to stay... by Metatone (4.00 / 1) #6 Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 09:25:29 AM EST
it's in line with my own personal economic interests.

I've yet to hear any detailed, believable case for a better future worth sacrificing those interests for.

I'll note in passing that given how Brexit is guaranteed to come with some economic upheaval, many people should be asking if the promised outcomes are worth the effects of an extra 5 or so years of economic uncertainty upon their lives.

This is not to exclude the possibility that it might be best to leave, but by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Brexiters have been crap at articulating the case so far. 

It seems to be a topic of indifference by gmd (4.00 / 1) #8 Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 11:59:52 AM EST
to most people. For all that the EU has me foaming at the mouth in blind impotent rage, the average man in the street doesn't really seem to care one way or the other. 

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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
I don't understand by Herring (4.00 / 2) #10 Sat Mar 05, 2016 at 07:14:38 PM EST
what annoys you about the EU more than, say, the current UK government. "Cunts I didn't vote for implementing policies I don't want" covers both fairly equally from where I'm sitting.

You can't inspire people with facts
- Small Gods

[ Parent ]
Yeah when you put it like that... by gmd (4.00 / 2) #11 Sun Mar 06, 2016 at 11:18:52 AM EST
They may be cunts, but at least they're our cunts. 

What annoys me most about the EU is the misrepresentation. It was sold as a trade agreement, when it is in fact an attempt to create a nation state called 'Europe'. Everyone on the continent knows this, but slimey UK politicians persist with the deception. The debate is being obfuscated.



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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
Please by darkbrown (4.00 / 3) #13 Tue Mar 08, 2016 at 06:23:40 AM EST
“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happenned to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"But that's terrible," said Arthur.
"Listen, bud," said Ford, "if I had one Altairian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say 'That's terrible' I wouldn't be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.”


[ Parent ]
Cut and pasted from bookmark for lizard principle by wumpus (4.00 / 2) #14 Sat Mar 12, 2016 at 02:41:19 PM EST
the only way to avoid that is democracy. I think Sid Meir might have been on to something. A real democracy (note civ also had republics) would remove the corruption of politicians (axiom: a citizen voting for his own benefit isn't being corrupt. No idea how to balance that against the "tyranny of the majority").

We (well, those populations with a workable internet system, although I suspect the US one doesn't cover enough people yet) could easily set up a system to divide issues down to subsets of people (similar to congressional committees) to hash out the details and push it up to larger and larger groups for approval. A quick study of US politics as more and more people obtained power does not imply that rookies have a clue when it comes to politics (best examples: alien and sedition acts, Andrew Jackson, prohibition[, reconstruction is controversial]).

Wumpus

I think I write this rant at least every year. Maybe I should give it a title and then just say "lizard principle" every time it comes up.

[ Parent ]
-1 too EU-centric by InternetLoser (4.00 / 2) #15 Sun Apr 03, 2016 at 09:52:05 PM EST
Not sure if people still get this reference.  I'm a very old man.


If you have not already watched it by gmd (2.00 / 0) #16 Tue May 17, 2016 at 08:31:19 AM EST

you probably should

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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.
The Hitler comparisons are out in force by gmd (2.00 / 0) #17 Sun May 29, 2016 at 08:16:46 AM EST
or is it just remainiac hysteria

I wonder if anyone has actually changed their opinion on EU membership (aka destroying the UKs sovereignty) as a result of the interminable propaganda circus in out useless media?


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gmd - HuSi's second most dimwitted overprivileged user.