Was the Zimmerman verdict correct?

Yes - Zimmerman shot Trayvon for a good reason   0 votes - 0 %
Yes - not enough evidence to convict   9 votes - 52 %
Yes - WIPO   2 votes - 11 %
No - Zimmerman did it and its a bad law   5 votes - 29 %
No - Zimmerman lied about the circumstances and shot him because he felt like it   1 vote - 5 %
No - WIPO   0 votes - 0 %
 
17 Total Votes
From what I gather by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #1 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 05:46:23 PM EST
Based on Florida law there was not enough evidence to convict.  I disagree with Florida law and will very likely never travel there until they change it.  I have no faith, even though I'm a white male, that I would be safe from gun violence in that state or any state with a similar stand your ground law. 

I'm too lazy to look, but I wonder if any cops have been shot by someone "standing their ground."




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Technician - "We can't even get decent physical health care. Mental health is like witchcraft here."

IIRC... by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #5 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:08:39 PM EST
I remember reading about at least one case where someone successfully used a "Stand Your Ground" defense in a drug deal gone bad.

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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman
[ Parent ]
If so, they'd be fucked. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #7 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:15:31 PM EST
FL's SYG law specifically disallows LE as an affirmative defense.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Also, 24 other states have near-identical SYG laws by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #8 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:18:33 PM EST
so enjoy your self-defeating boycott of half of the Union.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Just the bad half by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #9 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 06:50:52 AM EST
All takers and moochers with the exception of the occasional oligarch.




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Technician - "We can't even get decent physical health care. Mental health is like witchcraft here."
[ Parent ]
Even my super-libby-lib Evergreen State by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 09:06:16 PM EST
has it.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
Lumberjacks by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #23 Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 07:10:28 PM EST
You have too many lumberjacks.  They are Northern rednecks.




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Technician - "We can't even get decent physical health care. Mental health is like witchcraft here."
[ Parent ]
That's more of an Oregon thing. by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #25 Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 11:38:34 PM EST
Trust me, we have a plethora of rednecks here too.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
I think it's more than 24 ... by lm (2.00 / 0) #11 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 09:01:30 AM EST
... if you include case law.

But that depends on how you define "Stand your ground". If you take the simplest aspect of it, there being no duty to retreat so that lethal force is always an option even if there are other options available, I think the number is over 30.

And something like it exists for for federal case law as well:

Rationally the failure to retreat is a circumstance to be considered with all the others in order to determine whether the defendant went farther than he was justified in doing; not a categorical proof of guilt. The law has grown, and even if historical mistakes have contributed to its growth it has tended in the direction of rules consistent with human nature. Many respectable writers agree that if a man reasonably believes that he is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm from his assailant he may stand his ground and that if he kills him he has not succeeded the bounds of lawful self defence. That has been the decision of this Court. Beard v. United States, 158 U.S. 550, 559, 15 Sup. Ct. 962, 39 L. Ed. 1086. Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.

[Brown v. United States]



There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
From a practical perspective... by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 09:12:02 PM EST
SYG would rarely apply in a federal jurisdiction, as nearly all possession* of firearms outside of dutifully-armed employees is forbidden. In cases like military family housing, there is often joint state-federal jurisdiction and the feds don't often bother to prosecute when there is no compelling federal interest.

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

[ Parent ]
They all have SYG? by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #24 Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 11:24:41 PM EST
I thought even places like Colorado limited their "license to kill" laws to things like castle doctrine. Those laws might be brutal (shoot in the back over property, etc), but at least they don't give both sides legal permission to draw first. SYG pretty much legalizes wild west behavior.

Wumpus

[ Parent ]
By Florida law, probably, unfortunately. by gzt (2.00 / 0) #2 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 05:53:41 PM EST
Florida law apparently lowers the burden of proof for the affirmative defense of self defense. (note: I am not a lawyer and am especially not a Florida lawyer)

Right according to what? by lm (4.00 / 2) #3 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 07:10:00 PM EST
Law? Justice? Morality?

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
obviously the right answer by nathan (4.00 / 3) #17 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 04:49:18 PM EST
It's hard to say how a teenager getting shot to death could ever be "the right thing", but it probably shouldn't be illegal to shoot someone who's put you on the ground and is punching you in the head. Also, not that I think that Zimmerman thought this through, but a blow to the head is a lot worse if your head bounces into a brick wall or a sidewalk or something -- much greater chances of a lethal closed-head injury.

On the other hand, we don't know what lead to that point, and it's quite possible that Zimmerman was the first to initiate contact with Martin. If he put his hand on Martin first, he should have gotten manslaughter for imperfect self-defense.

On the third hand (I'm an octopus), if Zimmerman walked up to Martin and started talking to him, that hardly gave Martin the right to take a swing at him.  If that's what happened, it's hard to say what Zimmerman is guilty of even in a moral sense. Do we really want to make it so that you can't defend yourself just because you verbally confronted them?

On the fourth hand (squid), the real story here is that the media managed to get a totally BS story in front of the public in March 2012. There was a manufactured, media-driven element to this case that's impossible to ignore and that was the factor that changed it from a merely local story into a national scandal with the continuing involvement of DOJ and the President, a threatened civil-rights suit, etc. Zimmerman is kind of a loser, but he's clearly not the racist lunatic that we heard about last year -- he volunteers for the NAACP! Not to mention his mom is Afro-Peruvian, he's a registered Democrat, his "gated community" turns out to be lower middle-class, etc.

After the Zimmerman case, the Jena 6, the Duke lacrosse fiasco, etc., I'm done with any story that has a "narrative". The narrative is almost always wrong.



[ Parent ]
Do you subscribe to the 'right answer' thesis? by lm (2.00 / 0) #18 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 07:05:59 PM EST
I don't.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
i meant that asking 'what do you mean by right' by nathan (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 07:07:21 PM EST
is the right answer.

[ Parent ]
what that clear's things up by lm (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 07:09:43 PM EST
But I think you're wrong on that. ;)

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]
Bad laws by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #4 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:07:07 PM EST
The way I understand this, by Florida law, you can go deliberately provoke someone to violence and then shoot them without consequence.

(Or maybe not.  The thing about bad laws is that they are often arbitrarily enforced.)
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

About that FLorida Mom. by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #10 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 08:59:39 AM EST
She was black. In America, SYG doesn't apply to blakc people.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]
One very clear indication how arbitrary fate is by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #13 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:00:47 PM EST
Is that the black woman in question has exactly the same skin colour as George Zimmerman. I find bleak humour in that.

[ Parent ]
The system worked! by ammoniacal (2.00 / 0) #6 Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:12:52 PM EST

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

A problem with the Florida SYG law. by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #12 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 10:11:58 AM EST
Laid out here:
I can bait you into a fight and if I start losing I can can legally kill you, provided I "believe" myself to be subject to "great bodily harm." It is then the state's job to prove--beyond a reasonable doubt--that I either did not actually fear for my life, or my fear was unreasonable. In the case of George Zimmerman, even if the state proved that he baited an encounter (and I am not sure they did) they still must prove that he had no reasonable justification to fear for his life.


Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

I'm wondering if there will be any backlash by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #14 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:05:01 PM EST
against concealed carry licenses. I've been frequently reassured that such licenses require a certain amount of restraint. If no such restraint is enforced, I don't expect people to think of a CCW as much other than a "license to kill" (regardless of whether they are rushing out to get one or protesting in the streets).

Wumpus

[ Parent ]
Anonimouse is very bored by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #15 Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 02:18:52 PM EST
As you interchange correct and right between poll and diary, knowing the gap between them.

Wooosh! by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #16 Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 10:23:48 AM EST
Your sentence escaped the processing capacities of my fried brain cells.


Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
[ Parent ]
It was the right verdict for the jury by purr (2.00 / 0) #26 Wed Jul 24, 2013 at 11:59:18 PM EST
per the case that was presented to them.  There should have been a stronger case to convict him with then what was presented.

Otherwise, he has been tried and found not guilty.  Nothing else can be done in the courts to change that verdict.

It is time to get over it and move on.

 
Life is good when you are young. Then it sucks when you are old. And then you die. Live it while you got it.