Is dmg a vile racist for not being comfortable with unlimited immigration?

No   2 votes - 28 %
Yes   4 votes - 57 %
Other (WIPO)   1 vote - 14 %
 
7 Total Votes
I'm genuinely interested to know by dmg (4.00 / 1) #1 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:10:59 PM EST
If others think I am actually a racist. Obviously, I don't think I am, but I'm starting to wonder if I am out of step with the general consensus.

I'm also sure that my experience with the shitty outsourced IT staff I have to deal with on a daily basis is skewing my world view.
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dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.

IMHO: Not racist by codemonkey uk (4.00 / 2) #15 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 06:56:53 AM EST
Concern about cultural differences isn't racist, because it is about believes and attitudes not about genetic origins or skin and eye colours.

It is unfortunate that cultural issues get wrapped up with race issues, and especially unfortunate that racist people/organisations latch on to the cultural aspects of the immigration debate in order avoid the legitimate accusations of racism.

That said, take great fucking care about complaining about becoming the white minority - the key phrase to keep in mind here is White privilege. You may be a minority, but so are the worlds wealthiest 1%. Failing to recognise the advantages you've had in your life, and the benefits your skin colour and economic background bring you can only harm the discussion.

--- Thad ---
Almost as Smart As you.

[ Parent ]
All I know is by ambrosen (4.00 / 4) #2 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:18:40 PM EST
that you present as too self centred and arrogant for me to care about who you are and whether you're racist.

And I have to say, I respect hulver an awful lot for putting up your presence.


I'm glad you care enough by dmg (2.00 / 0) #3 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 08:26:09 PM EST
to tell me that you don't care.

and don't drag hulver into it.
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.

[ Parent ]
I think you were a little extreme there by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #16 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:04:52 AM EST
 Too much coffee?

If hulver elimated everyone whose opinions he didn't like on occassion, this place would be empty...oh wait...


Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
[ Parent ]
That dude lost me at 'reverse discrimination.' by ammoniacal (4.00 / 1) #4 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 10:33:55 PM EST
I think regular discrimination adequately describes the issue. WTF is a reverse discrimination anyway?

"To this day that was the most bullshit caesar salad I have every experienced..." - triggerfinger

I have no idea. by dmg (4.00 / 1) #5 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 10:43:12 PM EST
The whole 'discrimination' thing goes right over my head, me being a meritocrat and all that.

To my mind, you either understand variadic templates or you don't, your race is not a factor.
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.

[ Parent ]
I don't know you. by theboz (4.00 / 2) #6 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 11:13:19 PM EST
I can't comment on your motives but I tend to agree with the fact that most Indian I.T. workers are shitty.  One of my best friends is Indian, and his family is in politics.  I understand how beneficial technology has been for their country and I admire how they help each other out in a way that is foreign to my American mind.

That being said, the majority of Indian I.T. workers I have dealt with who are new to working in my country are the products of massive fraud.  They invent fake jobs to gain experience in unusual technologies on their resume or CV.  They have experts who either coach them for interviews, or actually do a phone interview for them.  If they get the job, they are constantly on then phone with their expert getting support in basic things and give access to these experts to remote control their office PC.  It also helps that the export guys run their own consulting firm on the side, which get their inexperienced relatives brought over on a work visa so they can take a cut.  My friend is making great money on the side as a result of this type of thing.  I make more than he does in the office, yet he was looking to buy a Lamborghini a few days ago while I can't afford to fix the heater in my vehicle.  In some ways, I am jealous.
- - - - -
That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n

so, uh... by R343L (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 11:19:21 PM EST
How did these fraudulent IT workers do during their in-house interview? Did they call up their expert??

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot
[ Parent ]
Consultants don't get those by theboz (4.00 / 1) #8 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 11:25:56 PM EST
People on H1B visas are generally not being hired full time in the U.S., and most companies don't seem to be willing to pay to fly in a consultant for an interview.  There is also corruption in the consulting world where the hiring manager also gets an hourly rate from the consulting firm so companies are more accepting of bad workers.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]
I guess I don't get it by R343L (2.00 / 0) #11 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 01:16:57 AM EST
If you've seen someone you're paying for expertise calling up for "help" why the hell are you paying them?

"There will be time, there will be time / To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet." -- Eliot
[ Parent ]
Application Out Sourcing by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #13 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 06:48:32 AM EST
Saw this sort of thing a lot when I was doing application outsourcing with an offshore component.  My company controlled who got on assignments at our outfit in India.  It was a process of warm bodies and then we had a rotation agreement to bring people to the US.  India controlled it's own hiring and decided who came for rotation.  The client was under a requirement from the CIO to get to x-percent offshore and no one had the ability to put up resistance.  My company didn't much care since we had a deal and people who pointed out that India had issues were viewed as malcontents.  The bigger the company, the worse this type of thing becomes. 




---------------
Technician - "We can't even get decent physical health care. Mental health is like witchcraft here."
[ Parent ]
my experience doesn't involve the 'help' calling by aphrael (4.00 / 1) #17 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 08:47:08 AM EST
but the quality of work turned out by many of my coworkers in india is ... substandard.

on the other hand, one of the best engineers on the team is a first generation immigrant from india.

from which i conclude that part of the problem is the culture of the office, not so much the skills of the workers.
If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.

[ Parent ]
I don't speak Hindi by theboz (4.00 / 1) #28 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 10:31:39 PM EST
It can be difficult to spot when this happens if 1) you don't speak the language or 2) don't hear enough context in English to get what they are talking about.  Besides, when it is an occasional thing its fine.  We all call up friends, use Google, email lists, forums, etc.  In these cases though it is a way to get someone with no skills to muddle through and return some results although they usually scree up majorly if given enough time.  Oh, and I mentioned my close Indian friend before because when we worked together in the past he warned me of the content of a consultant making calls like this, except it was that my consultant was the knowledgeable one.  He was actually working other jobs remotely while sitting in my office and being paid by us and failing to deliver on schedule.
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That's what I always say about you, boz, you have a good memory for random facts about pussy. -- joh3n
[ Parent ]
I'm not going to play the friends card. by dmg (4.00 / 1) #9 Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 11:43:49 PM EST
But I will say that I know plenty of darker skinned "racists".

With regard to the quality of subcontinental IT resources, I was in the unfortunate position of having to interview some of these guys for two positions. I interviewed over 40 people for these roles, and these were CV/resumes that had been vetted by recruitment agencies for our requirements. Several of them were basically blown out of the water after 2 minutes of not-very-in-depth technical questioning. Several of them were making very long (google type) pauses before answering the questions, and the ones that were any good wanted more cash than my stingy (Nazi gold hoarding) employer was willing to pay.

In the end we recommended one guy, and rejected everyone else. Management then came along and said "employ the best of the reject pile". So basically for headcount/budget reasons, we got to employ someone we had essentially rejected.

Fast forward 2 years and I am getting questions asking me trivial questions about the products we support, for which there is full documentation and a full development environment.

Don't you motherfuckers have ANY INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY AT ALL??????? You want me to fucking spoon feed you when you lied about your skills? Fuck that shit.

And putting "senior consultant" in your email sig does not enhance your credibility when you are fresh out of (dubious) college.
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.

[ Parent ]
Don't worry, time cures all by marvin (4.00 / 2) #10 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 12:36:44 AM EST
The second generation of immigrants (i.e., english-born) will have just as many chavs as the white english. By the third generation, the populations will be largely indistinguishable.

Twenty years ago, whites were becoming (if not already) a minority at UBC when I attended. Most of my friends at UBC were of Chinese origin, with maybe half born in Canada.

A few years ago, I had a co-worker of east-Indian descent. His parents were not born in Canada, and I'm not sure if he was either, although he grew up here. He made his way through university on a full-ride - get this - hockey scholarship. He was one of the best employees in the company - bright, dedicated, hard-working.

I would suggest that there is some selection bias going on in your memory as well. You may tend to remember the shitty applicants and workers if their skin colour is different than yours. Perhaps the poor applicants and workers who were english didn't stand out as much. Could that be labelled as racism? Doesn't matter much to me. Either you'll grow up and get over it, or you'll miss out on getting to know some great people because you prejudge them based on their skin colour. Your loss.

You've got to admit, English restaurants have hugely benefited from immigration. British cuisine is no longer an oxymoron. There's more to life than bangers and beans.

I think by jump the ladder (4.00 / 5) #12 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 05:08:55 AM EST
This is a very Adequate article, isn't it?

Conservative by jimgon (4.00 / 1) #14 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 06:50:43 AM EST
Just reflecting the conservative sentiment for immigration.  I don't think it's necessarily racist, but not just not a liberal sentiment.  I see this with consumers of Murdoch media.




---------------
Technician - "We can't even get decent physical health care. Mental health is like witchcraft here."
Ouch by Gedvondur (4.00 / 2) #19 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 09:44:58 AM EST


"So I will be hitting the snatch hard, I think, tonight." - gzt
[ Parent ]
I think you're a hypocrite by Scrymarch (4.00 / 3) #18 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 09:32:04 AM EST
As a libertarian, how could you be in favour of majoritarian restraints on free trade in labour?

Iambic Web Certified

The thing is by dmg (2.00 / 0) #32 Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:52:00 PM EST
They are doing something akin to replacing salaried staff with bonded labourers. I have no problem competing on a level playing field, but the game is being skewed. It doesn't matter much though its more of an inconvenience than anything else. Just means I may have to "go Galt" for a while.
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
I think you've got some pretty odd ideas by Gedvondur (4.00 / 1) #20 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 09:50:58 AM EST
Especially about democracy. You were "consulted" with your last vote.  It's a representative democracy not a direct democracy. 

What are you really worried about? Reverse racism? 

As for not believing in Israel, well that's just silly. It was your country that did all the legwork for it, in 1922, if I remember right.  The nice racist people like yourself at the time thought a Jewish homeland was a great idea, because they could deport all the Jews to it.


So basically to me, it seems like you are simply a regressive, unable to deal with the idea of multiculturalism or the idea that these immigrants could bring good things to the country.  That being said, I am never in favor of immigrating peoples being allowed to keep barbaric habits, like honor killing, female genital mutilation, oppression of women in general.

Anyway, yes, you are racist.

"So I will be hitting the snatch hard, I think, tonight." - gzt
Have you considered moving to South Carolina by wiredog (4.00 / 1) #21 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 11:24:47 AM EST
and watching Fox News all day long?

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

this is the internet by clover kicker (4.00 / 1) #23 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 01:37:15 PM EST
He may very well have been in SC all along.

[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure he is already by wumpus (4.00 / 1) #24 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 04:24:43 PM EST
getting his Murdoch approved content.

Wumpus

[ Parent ]
Confusing outsourcing with race by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #22 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 11:49:17 AM EST
Outsourcing operates on the theory that some other company, who does not suffer if your company fails, and earns more money the more work can be generated somehow has an incentive to hire good people at a cheaper rate

This is of course idiotic.  Most of the incentives these outsourcing companies have are to find lots of warm bodies and milk their customers for all they are worth.  In most cases, buggy software produces more work in the future while good software produces nothing.  Is it any surprise that these companies hire mostly idiots?

On the other hand, I've seen no particular difference in standards among actual employees.

In terms of the other thing: As someone who has lived in a white-minority area for almost two decades, I find fears of such amusing.  It's a lot nicer here than many of the lily-white areas of this country.
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

Hmmmm. by dmg (2.00 / 0) #25 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 06:38:41 PM EST
My personal experience is that the "cheaper" employees are not equivalent to the "expensive" ones that they replace.
5 £20k developers doesn't equal 1 £100k developer. Not even close.
--
dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
Depends on what you mean by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #26 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:40:38 PM EST
They always look cheaper on the power point the outsourcing company uses to sell their service.

Once they have the contract of course, it is in the outsourcing company's best interest to maximize hours.

Mediocre developers usually take longer.

It's simple economics: outsourcing companies have no incentive to find good developers.

(Er...most.  Did I mention I'm managing an outsourced team right now?)
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[ucblockhead is] useless and subhuman

[ Parent ]
Well exactly by dmg (2.00 / 0) #27 Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 08:18:05 PM EST
There is a perverse incentive for the outsourcing company.
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dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]
this post really opened my eyes. by the mariner (4.00 / 2) #29 Thu Dec 13, 2012 at 08:53:12 AM EST
i always thought conservatives are racists and racism is bad. but maybe conservatives aren't as racist as i thought and racism isn't that bad anyway! 

I think you should first admit your own guilt by georgeha (4.00 / 5) #30 Thu Dec 13, 2012 at 03:20:59 PM EST
How often have you spoken up in shareholder meetings, questioning whether saving a few farthings  on labour is worth the outsourcing of critical skills to non-Brits?

When you documented your code, do you do it clearly and cleanly so anyone with a modest gasp of English can follow along and maintain it, or do you use colloquialism and slang to make it inaccessible to anyone not of your class or background?

What's been sitting in your driveway the last few decades, fine homegrown automobiles like the Robin Reliant, or imported vehicles like Audi's?

Where have you been spending your holiday pounds, on your island or in outlandish foreign parts like Majorca?


My code IS the documentation. by dmg (4.00 / 1) #31 Thu Dec 13, 2012 at 06:47:58 PM EST
But you are right, I have brought this on myself. It no doubt my well deserved payback for all the nefarious deeds of my British ancestors. Karma if you like,
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dmg - HuSi's most dimwitted overprivileged user.
[ Parent ]