Well?

Saviour of Britain   2 votes - 15 %
Mostly good ideas, some bad   0 votes - 0 %
Mostly bad ideas, some good   6 votes - 46 %
Give it up you useless cunt   3 votes - 23 %
WIPO   2 votes - 15 %
 
13 Total Votes
Ok then. Stuff I agree with. by hulver (2.00 / 0) #1 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 01:47:06 AM EST
 * Abolish working tax credits.

Yes. The "Tax Credit" system is over complicated and stupid. Also abolish the "Working Family Tax Credit", just change the tax code like in the past. Very simple, uses the existing system. You can't over pay people because you're just taking less instead of taking it away and then giving it back.

* All public sector "civil" servants, quangocrats, NHS staff et al earning over £50,000 per annum to take a mandatory 10% pay cut.

OK. Your point below about MPs would also be covered by this, as long as they did this and made sure that they were included.

* Cut all foreign aid.  Yes, _all_ foreign aid.

Yep.

* Postpone Trident.

Yep.

* Scrap ID cards, mothball NHS IT SPINE and halt any non-essential IT projects 

God yes.

* Raise the threshold of income tax allowance so that those who lost their WTC's are better off.  And actually do proper accounting sums to make sure that this is the case, not like the back-of-a-fag-packet 10p tax cut debacle.

Yes.

* Abandon "low cost" initiatives like the anti-obesity campaign that do not provide immediate, essential services.

Yes.

* Freeze council tax for 2009, and into 2010 if things aren't picking up by then

Maybe. I'm not sure about this. Perhaps a more stringent cap instead.

* Government owned banks should be offering BoE interest rate + 1% tracker mortgages for 5 years, on mortgages of no higher than 90% of the property value, for first time buyers planning on actually living in the house they have just bought.

Not sure about this. I'm not that keen on banks, but they should have competition, not unfair competition.

* Stamp duty holiday for any property bought for less than £0.5MM.

This might be expensive.

* MPs to take a 10% cut in salary (not that this'll help public finances but at least we know the MPs share our pain).

See above. They should also be made accountable for their expenses, and have reasonable caps put in place. They've got one of the best pension schemes in the world, why should they get all the other perks like free second homes in London etc. Make free MP's apartments in London that they can stop in when they need to be away from their constituency's.

* All quangos to take an immediate 10% cut in budget.  No one earning <£30K per annum can be affected in any way however.

Quangos. I'm unsure if all quangos are bad. They're a convenient scape goat pulled out by the right wing to point to government excess, but some of them might do a necessary job.

* Civil servants to take an immediate 5% cut in budget.

You've already slashed the pay for people earning over £50k. That would include doctors I assume, since they're employed by the NHS. You want to slash the NHS budget by 5%? Lots of economists say that cutting spending during a recession is a bad thing. This might need more thought.

* Social housing to be built in a great public works initiative.  Companies wishing to tender must have all board level executives registered to pay tax in the UK, and must source British materials where available.  Employees working on these projects must have a UK passport (likely to run into EU opposition on this one, could weasel it as a "security measure").  Companies must have an accredited apprenticeship program, and a reasonable percentage of apprentices on the books.

I'm not sure about this one. Undecided.

* Begin overhauling the canal system, again contracting firms subject to limitations above.

Eh? Why? Who uses the canal system?

* All governmental departments to settle their accounts with suppliers within 10 working days, not 30 or 100.

Now you're talking.

* Windfall tax on profiteering energy companies.

I'm against windfall taxes. You don't get Anti-windfall tax cuts, why the rises? Impossible to plan for, should look for other measures instead.
--
Cheese is not a hat. - clock


Further elucidation by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #3 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:06:25 AM EST
- mortgages - banks aren't passing on the interest rate cuts well enough.  If government owned banks provided some unfari competition it'll force their hand.  And what is the point of publicly owning a bank if it is not run for the benefit of the populace that bought it?

- quangos - yes some of them are useful, many are not.  Read "Squandered".

- Cutting spending in a recession - necessary so we can begin living within our means as a nation.  Some economists also claim you can't spend your way out of a recession.  Are you claiming that there's not 5% of waste to be trimmed in the civil service?

- canals - reinvigorate the transport network

- windfall - this is largely a punitive tax as the energy regulator has repeatedly failed to reign in energy companies' excess profit taking.


[ Parent ]

Some sense there by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #5 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:17:39 AM EST
But I'm afraid your British passport criterion nauseates me.


[ Parent ]

I admit that is clumsy by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 03:18:01 AM EST
But I couldn't find a better way to make sure the investment stays in the country. 

Knowing building companies galloping towards the smell of pork for public building works will ship in a whole load of cheap imported labour to do the work, I was trying to find a way to make sure the tax payers money went towards "British jobs, for British people".  Which is also why the apprenticeship stipulation is in there too; this is useful make-work and I am trying to get the best value for British society for our money.

If you have any better way to ensure the investment stays in the UKian economy, I'm all ears.


[ Parent ]

Helluva price by Merekat (4.00 / 2) #10 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 03:31:33 AM EST
I really wouldn't insist on 100% being local. Hell, I don't think even the Swiss do and this is the most protectionist place I've ever lived. I'm sure someone can calculate a civil cost of alienation felt by all foreigners in the UK who've spent decades working and paying taxes and contributing to a society they've made their home. It would, for example, be a fantastic way to collapse the NHS;)

Once someone is in and legally working and paying taxes and doing their shopping and drinking beer on a Friday locally, they are a part of the economy regardless of passport. They're keeping the cash moving. If they want to send 50% of their income back home to the family in Vilnius, frankly I couldn't care less - that 50% will go further there and reduce the likelihood of them turning up on your doorstep and being unemployed and costing more that way. You want to avoid importation of 'cheap' labour? Insist everyone be paid a decent wage, regardless of origin. That makes a UK person no more expensive than the incomer and if the incomer is shit hot good compared to the Brit, you get a quality benefit from hiring them.

Am I right in concluding that your own wife would, under this policy, be precluded from bidding for government business, despite clearly having a real and substantive connection to the UK?


[ Parent ]

Hmmm by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #14 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:18:40 AM EST
Yours is a good argument but has too many maybe's.  At present I have no doubt we could find a shithot import for many jobs, that would do excellent quality work cheaply.   But the driving force behind this idea is to provide an opportunity to train our own populace to compete.  Your point about a fair wage holds though; I should have considered that better.

/alienation felt by all foreigners in the UK who've spent decades working and paying taxes and contributing to a society/
If they've been here decades then surely they'd have claimed a UKian passport?  How about "been resident for 5 years or more" instead of "must hold a UKian passport"?

And yes, MBW would be excluded by these proposals.  But "real and substantive UK connection" is harder to legislate than "must have a UK passport".  Which again, I recognise as clumsy; I was trying to avoid a massive list of caveats to apply.


[ Parent ]

To paraphrase myself by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #15 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:23:05 AM EST
on what I thought of the US election choice, the possible failure of the maybes in my proposal scares me far less than the possible success of your definites.

And why would people want to claim a passport from a country that would bring in policies that make them feel so unwelcome? Perhaps they come from countries which would make it very difficult for them to hold more than one passport and require their original one to maintain access to their extended families?


[ Parent ]

OK then by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #17 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:43:18 AM EST
"Resident in UK for 5 years or more" sit better with you?


[ Parent ]

excellent by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:58:22 AM EST
Just fire up the expensive IT project to track that there now;)


[ Parent ]

Not required. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #22 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 05:20:12 AM EST
Provide bank statement, council tax bill, credit card bill etc.


[ Parent ]

indeed by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #24 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 05:27:23 AM EST
All third party and quite fakeable. I thought you didn't want dirty little foreigns abusing your systems?


[ Parent ]

As opposed to a big database by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #26 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 06:10:12 AM EST
Fakeable, yes.  Which I believe to be a crime, is it not?


[ Parent ]

The Swiss by dmg (2.00 / 0) #34 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:34:06 PM EST
Say what you like about them, but they know how to run a country... 
--
How to deal with trolls..
[ Parent ]

Damn, now I'd better do one by R Mutt (4.00 / 2) #8 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 03:22:36 AM EST
* Abolish working tax credits.

Maybe. Tax code could possibly be simplified, but doesn't need to be more regressive.

* All public sector "civil" servants, quangocrats, NHS staff et al earning over £50,000 per annum to take a mandatory 10% pay cut.

No. Sacking 10% of people might be a better idea, or pressuring the budget, but blanket restrictions like this are just daft: all the incompetents will stay while the clever people start job-hunting.

* Cut all foreign aid.  Yes, all foreign aid.

No. Immoral, plus foreign aid is a trivial amount anyway, and mostly used to pursue British interests internationally.

* Postpone Trident.

No. Postponing large projects raises the overall price, as you moth-ball, suspend, fire and rehire. Either cancel it or keep going. More importantly, we're entering recession and need an economic boost now. Postponing spending to a boom period in the future, where it will cause the boom to everheat further, is a really bad idea. (Pro-cylical rather than counter-cyclical)

* Scrap ID cards, mothball NHS IT SPINE and halt any non-essential IT projects.

Yes.

* Raise the threshold of income tax allowance so that those who lost their WTC's are better off.  And actually do proper accounting sums to make sure that this is the case, not like the back-of-a-fag-packet 10p tax cut debacle.

Maybe. The problem is you need to be really careful about benefit traps when simplifying a system, since simple systems usually mean sharp thresholds.

* Abandon "low cost" initiatives like the anti-obesity campaign that do not provide immediate, essential services.

The anti-obesity campaign should be stopped because of poor evidence that it will work. Initiatives with good evidence behind them should remain.

* Freeze council tax for 2009, and into 2010 if things aren't picking up by then

No. We already have massively over-centralized government: this should be a local issue.

* Government owned banks should be offering BoE interest rate + 1% tracker mortgages for 5 years, on mortgages of no higher than 90% of the property value, for first time buyers planning on actually living in the house they have just bought.

Yes (though possibly not with those numbers), I've been pushing similar ideas for a while.

* Stamp duty holiday for any property bought for less than £0.5MM.

No. Evidence is that stamp duty holidays are not effective: with overall property prices likely to drop 20% to 40%, stamp duty makes little difference.

* MPs to take a 10% cut in salary (not that this'll help public finances but at least we know the MPs share our pain).

No. MPs and ministers are substantially underpaid for their level of responsibility: they need to be less bribable, not more.

* All quangos to take an immediate 10% cut in budget.  No one earning <£30K per annum can be affected in any way however.

No. Either shut them down individually or don't, applying arbitrary top-down restrictions like this is just bizarre.

* Civil servants to take an immediate 5% cut in budget.

No. See above

* Social housing to be built in a great public works initiative.  Companies wishing to tender must have all board level executives registered to pay tax in the UK, and must source British materials where available.  Employees working on these projects must have a UK passport (likely to run into EU opposition on this one, could weasel it as a "security measure").  Companies must have an accredited apprenticeship program, and a reasonable percentage of apprentices on the books.

Maybe. Could do with more housing, but the bottleneck is the planning system, and the restrictions look pointless.

* Begin overhauling the canal system, again contracting firms subject to limitations above.

Maybe. If it's practical to automate the lock system and use barge-trains it might be feasible, but it might not.

* All governmental departments to settle their accounts with suppliers within 10 working days, not 30 or 100.

No.

* Windfall tax on profiteering energy companies.

No. Too late for that with prices falling.

* (Added after original post as I forgot it) - start building clean coalfired power stations, owned by the state, and never to be sold to private industry (same restrictions on building contractors as before).  Restart the UKian mining industry.

No. Too polluting, both with CO2 and old-fashioned smog: "clean coal" is a very relative term. More nukes please.

Overall, seems like a pretty poor plan.

First, running a goverment isn't like running a household because of the need for a counter-cyclical fiscal policy. In a recession, you want to spend more to boost the economy. In a boom, you want to spend less to avoid overheating the economy.

Your plans seem to involve cutting spending right now as we're entering a recession, and spending money when we exit the recession. That's pro-cyclical: exactly the wrong thing to do.

The exception may be the house-building programme. But even that will take time to ramp up: you've got to acquire the land, draw up the plans, hire the people... it's not going to be an immediate boost. The average recession lasts 11 months: I doubt you're going to be pouring much concrete in the first months... maybe not in the first years.

Secondly, it seems to involve central government imposing draconian, rigid, arbitrary top-down budget constraints, with no thought to whether the departments will be able to work effectively or not. Seems like a terrible management strategy to me.

So on the whole, seems a bit silly.

[ Parent ]

You better had do one. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #12 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:11:31 AM EST
Disagree but your point holds some water.

/benefit traps when simplifying a system/
Very true, which is why I stated that the sums _must_ add up.

/Initiatives with good evidence behind them should remain./
Nope, we must pare down costs to the bare minimum.  Aspirational initiatives must be shelved for better times.

/Council tax/
I can't see any council voluntarily offering a freeze.  And for many, local elections are too long off for this to become politically important.

/stamp duty holiday/
Your link is down (or my DNS is) so I can't read that.  But seeing as most mortgage lenders are now asking for a minimum of 10% deposit, having to find an extra few grand (over 8k on a 250K mortgage) stamp duty makes a difference. 

/MPs and ministers are substantially underpaid for their level of responsibility: they need to be less bribable, not more./
At the current rate of corruption I doubt we'd see any difference to their willingness to be bribed.

/quangos/
Again, immediate cash cost to be paid out for redundancies.  Trim the fat, keep the staff, don't bloat the unemployment numbers.

/Social housing public works, bottleneck, pointless restrictions/
True, the bottlenecks could slow things down.  Why do you think the restrictions are pointless?

/faster settlement of supplier accounts/
Why do you oppose this?  Cashflow is one of the biggest killers of SMEs.

/Coal power stations/
Nukes take too long to build and are politically charged; coal is a cheap solution right now.  And will potentially give funding to even cleaner coal fired generators.

/In a recession, you want to spend more to boost the economy./
Disagree, in a recession you must trim unnecessary cost and remove waste.  And invest the proceeds in building infrastructure, which is different to your assertion of spraying cash everywhere.  Cash which we'll have to borrow, BTW.

/In a boom, you want to spend less to avoid overheating the economy./
While you're there, shut that barn door would you?

/Your plans seem to involve cutting spending right now as we're entering a recession, and spending money when we exit the recession./
No, the spending will increase.  But in order to fund it, the money should not be borrowed.  Economies must be made, belts must be tightened and better value for money achieved in current government spending.  Then with those savings in hand, the money can be directed to growth.  I am not advocating reducing spending, just better targetted spending.

/The average recession lasts 11 months/
This recession will last longer than 11 months.  We may have the occasional blip out of it, but I can't see much good before 2010.

/Secondly, it seems to involve central government imposing draconian, rigid, arbitrary top-down budget constraints./
Cost control in government.  Novel thought, I am sure.


[ Parent ]

Well by R Mutt (4.00 / 2) #20 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:59:30 AM EST
/In a recession, you want to spend more to boost the economy./
Disagree, in a recession you must trim unnecessary cost and remove waste. And invest the proceeds in building infrastructure, which is different to your assertion of spraying cash everywhere. Cash which we'll have to borrow, BTW.
Keynes' famous example was that in a recession, the government could borrow money, and pay people to dig holes in the ground and fill them in, and that would still help get the economy out of recession.

(He was being a bit ironic: he pointed out that he'd rather the government paid people to do something useful, but the holes would be better than nothing.)

What you're proposing is the opposite: take people who are already being paid to do some (useful or useless) labour in a recession, and stop them from doing it.

The effect of that is going to be to deepen and lengthen the recession. Some right-wing economists do argue that it's worth deepening and prolonging a recession in order to shrink debt and government. But the nature of the effect isn't something that they disagree on.

So, your plan just isn't a get-us-out-of-recession-plan. It may be perfectly worthwhile as a make-recession-worse-to-achieve-long-term-benefits plan. But you can't really sell it as "finding your way out of this mess", if "this mess" is supposed to be the credit crunch and recession.

[ Parent ]

Keynes by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #25 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 05:58:04 AM EST
Keynes' famous example was that in a recession, the government could borrow money

He also said that in the long run we're all dead as well.  Masterful.

What you're proposing is the opposite: take people who are already being paid to do some (useful or useless) labour in a recession, and stop them from doing it.
That is nowhere near what I said and if I have expressed myself poorly then I take this opportunity to correct your misconception.  I'm saying pay governmental staff less to do some useful | useless labour, and use that money to pay other people to do useful work. Spread the money thinner but further.   Is that clear now?

So my plan is get us out of recession and get some value for money in the spending we make as an investment in the country's future.

This fixation with further borrowing is great and all, but I don't recall reading Keynes' guidelines of what to do when government borrowing is already high, in the face of frightened markets.  When other governments are also trying to raise debt, other countries who are percieved as lower risk.

If we turn the borrow taps on, what guarantee is there that anything will come out?  Which is why we must seek to make our own best effort at becoming a solvent nation once again. 

Because when we head to the IMF for a bailout, better that we have made economies ourselves than have them foisted upon us as a bailout condition.









[ Parent ]

That far right thinktank by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #30 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 07:11:46 AM EST
Well by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #40 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 01:10:29 AM EST
That seems to be a guest opinion, not an FT Op-Ed. And he's not denying the Keynesian premise about deficit-spending in a recession: he's just saying that the long-term inflationary consequences will be bad, so we should just live with a bad recession instead.

I think you're taking the Tory "OMG debt apocalypse!" line a bit literally. There was a BBC article The myth of record debt yesterday that puts things in a bit more perspective. Debt is higher than we would like given this stage in the cycle, but it's not extraordinarily terrible.

I'm saying pay governmental staff less to do some useful | useless labour, and use that money to pay other people to do useful work. Spread the money thinner but further. Is that clear now?
I interpreted the original diary as meaning you want to cut spending, which would worsen the recession. OK, so you now seem to either wanting to keep spending the same, or raise taxes and raise spending, which would have no effect on the recession. But I don't see how it helps the recession at all. Also as I said, I think these giant projects would take time to get underway.

Regarding an IMF bailout, it seems highly unlikely that there would be one. But if there was, it would be better save as much debt-reduction as possible for the negotiating table, rather than give up bargaining chips in advance.

Regarding the blanket insistence on fast bill paying, it seems like a nice idea in theory, but I just suspect there could be a horrible raft of unintended consequences. Delaying invoices is very common in the business world as well, it's not confined to government. If there's a rigid rule against it, what are the spending offices going to do to manage cashflow instead? In order to pay a bill now, are they going to stop doing useful work to save a few pounds on the month's cost? Are they going to start running large, wasteful, current account surpluses in case they get an unexpected cost, since they can't cope by delaying a bill instead?

Overall, most of these ideas don't seem to have anything to do with the current problems. And even in a boom, I don't these blanket overall spending reductions by 5% or whatever make much sense. It's better to work out what's useless and cut it 100%, and not cut the useful stuff at all.

[ Parent ]

Bad and worse by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #42 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:40:11 AM EST
he's just saying that the long-term inflationary consequences will be bad

Bad, as in Keynes did not factor in the country's current indebtedness, nor currency devaluation.  And I stand willing to be corrected that he'd not thought about the whole world being in recession, with many nations competing to borrow.  Our 10 year Gilts are looking shaky - creditors have already been burnt by GBP's slide against other currencies.

Whether the national debt is terrible or not, it's still pretty big.  Which will scare off some of those that the government wishes to borrow money from, or they will insist on a higher premium for lending to us.  Add that in to the Enron-like accountancy practices (see top article from here  "Damned Lies And Debt Statistics") - even if you dispute the level of debt from that article, the fact is that the government is misrepresenting it's accounts, which again makes creditors nervous.

I interpreted the original diary as meaning you want to cut spending, which would worsen the recession. OK, so you now seem to either wanting to keep spending the same, or raise taxes and raise spending, which would have no effect on the recession. But I don't see how it helps the recession at all.
I'll spell it out from you - make savings in existing expenditure and use that to invest in the country and in jobs, as well as giving the low end of wage earners a bit more cash left after the taxman has taken his wedge.  Which is following your beloved Keynesian doctrine, but without the borrowing.

Also as I said, I think these giant projects would take time to get underway.

There will be some lag, yes.  But the prospect of government contracts in the offing might delay companies slashing headcounts, until there is some movement on the projects - it's all about businesses having confidence in the market.  And immediately, there will be work in consultation and planning.

Regarding an IMF bailout, it seems highly unlikely that there would be one.
We'll see.

But if there was, it would be better save as much debt-reduction as possible for the negotiating table, rather than give up bargaining chips in advance.
So you're proposing go balls deep on debt now because there's a bailout coming?

Regarding the blanket insistence on fast bill paying, it seems like a nice idea in theory

As far as I know, governmental departments receive their yearly budget each fiscal year.  So it is already sitting handy for them to access, unless they've put it in one of those great high interest accounts.

Overall, most of these ideas don't seem to have anything to do with the current problems.
Hmm, let me see now - demanding a more efficient public sector, redirecting savings to raise employment, postponing ideological and vanity projects.  You're completely right; I can't see how any of this would help.  We really need more Zest Hub Coordinators.

these blanket overall spending reductions by 5% or whatever make much sense. It's better to work out what's useless and cut it 100%,
Cutting out the useless will cost in terms of redundancy pay, and political capital.  Cameron is too scared of cries of TORY CUTS and Brown is too vain to admit the public sector is anything less than perfect.

I am guessing we both agree that there should be spending to help us through the next 18 months, what we are disagreeing on is how to fund it.  Is that a fair assessment?




[ Parent ]

Um by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #44 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:05:31 AM EST
I'll spell it out from you - make savings in existing expenditure and use that to invest in the country and in jobs, as well as giving the low end of wage earners a bit more cash left after the taxman has taken his wedge. Which is following your beloved Keynesian doctrine, but without the borrowing.
The borrowing is the main thing about the Keynesian doctrine. If you take a pound from someone and give it to someone else, that doesn't provide a Keynesian boost, because while someone has gained a pound, someone else has lost it.

(Well, if people are saving instead of spending, you could theoretically also get a boost by increasing net taxation, though that's not what's usually meant).

But just shifting existing spending around doesn't shorten a recession or make it less deep.

Your plan seems to be the equivalent of fixing a computer by straightening the cables so the "1"s don't get stuck... things just don't work that way.

[ Parent ]

To extend by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #45 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:33:43 AM EST
If you take a pound from someone and give it to someone else, that doesn't provide a Keynesian boost, because while someone has gained a pound, someone else has lost it.
And if you borrow a pound to give someone a pound, you then have to take a pound + interest off them at some point.

Your plan seems to be the equivalent of fixing a leaky bucket by pouring more water into it.


[ Parent ]

Exactly by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #46 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:47:31 AM EST
It's Keynes plan, not mine.

But yes, basically the way it works is that in boom times, there's too much money in the bucket, so it sloshes inflation all over the place.

In recessions, there's too little money in the bucket, so there's no growth.

So you use borrowing and/or saving to pipe some money from the boom times to the recession.

Whereas the parts of your plan like postponing Trident pipe money in the wrong direction: from a recession bucket that's already running worryingly dry into a future boom-bucket that will be dangerously full.

[ Parent ]

Hmmm by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #48 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:56:31 AM EST
The problem here is that the borrowing's been going on at the same time as the boom.  Now we are at the bust stage, the borrowing is much harder.

So I advocate efficiency ahead of borrowing; because Keynes's borrowing was starting from a better position.


[ Parent ]

Which is a plausible position by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #49 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:10:35 AM EST
And will help a lot in the recession following the boom after this recession's over. But it doesn't help us out right now.

I suppose the fundamental problem was that instead of using Keynes' fiscal pipe and saving in the boom, they used Milton Friedman's monetary pipe of interest rates. However, while that pipe successfully kept the boom-bucket from overflowing into inflation, it just piped money into the sub-prime water balloon, which exploded leaving everyone soaking wet and furious.

[ Parent ]

Indeed. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #50 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 05:41:35 AM EST
Wherever you're going, you wouldn't start from here.

I worry that Gordo's toying with tax cuts funded by borrowing though.


[ Parent ]

And on a 225k mortgage (10% Depost) by Imperial Mince (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 05:09:56 AM EST
the stamp duty is on 2.5k. House price defaltion ftw

--
This space reserved for whining like a little bitch and being sanctimonious.
[ Parent ]

stamp duty by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #23 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 05:25:47 AM EST
It really seems like something that once it exists should not be fucked with. The irish government in the boom reduced/eliminated stamp duty in a lot of cases. This caused the property price to shoot up by the amount the stamp duty went down by, and resulted in less money going to the government (one now so strapped for cash it can't vaccinate kids against cancer) but no money saved by the purchaser. The recent crisis management budget pushed it back up again for some, immediately killing what action there was in that sector. Moral - leave stamp duty alone. People can cope with it in a boom when it is static and stable but they start all kinds of useless shit when it is prone to changing which does not compensate for whatever benefit you are trying to achieve.


[ Parent ]

6 month holiday perhaps? by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #27 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 06:32:00 AM EST
Get some liquidity in the market before the scenario you've painted rolls around.  I need to think on the potential side effects of that one a bit though.


[ Parent ]

installments by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #28 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 06:48:54 AM EST
An option to allow them to pay slightly more (cost recovery of admin) in installments over the first year would suit a lot of people.


[ Parent ]

Good idea, I like it. by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #29 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 06:57:18 AM EST
How would you deal with defaults though?


[ Parent ]

How does the revenue deal with them now? by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #36 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 10:15:47 PM EST
There are already mechanisms for tax defaulters. Entertainingly in Ireland I would say the revenue are one of the most effective and efficient (and customer friendly) government departments. But then they have had plenty of practice with evaders.


[ Parent ]

Bad press by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #39 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:54:16 AM EST
To jail someone for not paying their stamp duty installment; income tax has a different place in the country's feelings.


[ Parent ]

The revenue knows all by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #41 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:13:58 AM EST
And cares not a jot...
Actually what they normally do is renegotiate, come to terms and take yer fancy car if you own it. And the government rarely gets any flack for how the revenue implement policies for some reason.


[ Parent ]

I have often wondered by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #43 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 03:43:53 AM EST
About the disconnect that people have there - hate the bloody taxman but love the government announcing new initiatives.  Where do they think the money comes from, or do they ever wonder whose rules the taxman is implementing when tax bills are due?

But I can see this portrayed in the press as "grasping greedy government wants more of your hard earned money".  Maybe have an optional 6 month holiday before the repayment schedule starts, so people can build up some capital first?  I do like this idea; just trying to see ways it could be done well.


[ Parent ]

Wrong Attn by R Mutt (2.00 / 0) #2 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 01:56:34 AM EST
The big development lately is that the Tory poll lead is dropping like a stone... down from 19% to 5% according to the Times.

At this rate, Gordon Brown is on course to cruise to an election victory.

As the official HuSi Right Winger, you need to be doing an Attn George Osborne with some idea how he pull his damn thumb out and come up with some kind of vaguely coherent or plausible economic plan.

Usually the Tories are the "safe pair of hands" party in economic crises, but instead of dominating on this, they're rolling around on the floor getting the living shit kicked out of them. Unless they can sort their act out, we may be looking at another term for Gordon Brown...



Further wrong attn by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #4 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:17:03 AM EST
I'm not hankering for a Tory government.

I want a non- Labour government.

But yes, the Tories do seem to be a bit shit right now.  I don't know if they are trying to dip their lead a little so GTLSB is tempted to call an early election, then open up with both barrels and unveil their Grand Master Plan.  Or if they've looked at the country's books and gone "you carry the can for this one Labour, 'cos we don't have the balls to do it".

But mystifying, their current behaviour.


Interesting to see that the BBC seems to be claiming GTLSB as World Saviour, yet the foreign press (Washington Post, WSJ) seem to be "Brown?  Meh".  Do you think the BBC is biased towards Labour at present?


[ Parent ]

It's weird. by hulver (2.00 / 0) #6 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:33:34 AM EST
Listening to the BBC news on the way home, I was told how GTLSB had succeeded in organising world leaders to do a world wide tax cut. Yet it's not mentioned anywhere else, except as a failure to organise a world wide tax cut.
--
Cheese is not a hat. - clock
[ Parent ]

It's not just me then by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #9 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 03:23:56 AM EST
Because of late I'm finding the BBC less than impartial.  I thought it was just my tinfoil hat vibrating; it'd be interesting to see what other UKians think of BBC coverage of late.


[ Parent ]

BBC less than impartial? by dmg (2.00 / 0) #35 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:36:08 PM EST
Bunch of lefty wankers.
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How to deal with trolls..
[ Parent ]

That's a lot of 10% pay-cuts by priestess (2.00 / 0) #11 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 03:56:44 AM EST
Isn't that going to reduce spending, crash the retail market leading to more unemployment leading to more retail pain etc.?

Pre............

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Chat to the virtual me...


Re-read by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:13:27 AM EST
10% pay cuts are for those earning above 50K.


[ Parent ]

Ah, the ones with disposable income. by Herring (2.00 / 0) #16 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:31:03 AM EST
Incidentally, my sister is a fairly senior bod in HMRC. If she got a tax cut (I don't think she earns over £50K BTW) then why shouldn't she bog off to the private sector as a tax expert? And when there, would she be advising them how to pay less or more tax?

[ Parent ]

The tax cut by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #18 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 04:47:10 AM EST
Applies to everyone, regardless of employer.

why shouldn't she bog off to the private sector as a tax expert?
Indeed, why shouldn't she?

would she be advising them how to pay less or more tax?
As long as it's legal then why not?  


[ Parent ]

it... it is like a tax plan by dr k (2.00 / 0) #31 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:22:21 AM EST
for an alternate universe. Councils? NHS? And then you use this funny little "£" for a dollar sign.

:| :| :| :| :|



Further reference material by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #32 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 08:43:45 AM EST
Can be found here.


[ Parent ]

withdrawing from the EU by dmg (2.00 / 0) #33 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 02:33:03 PM EST
Would save us around £20bn/year... 
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How to deal with trolls..


Seriously disagree with foreign aid cuts by nebbish (2.00 / 0) #37 Tue Nov 18, 2008 at 11:46:15 PM EST
They're starving to death; we're just trying to maintain outrageous house prices and the ability to buy designer clothes.

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It's political correctness gone mad!


ORLY? by Breaker (2.00 / 0) #38 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 12:53:05 AM EST
Perhaps not all foreign aid then.  But why are we sending almost a billion pounds to a nation that's rich enough to send a mission to the moon?


[ Parent ]

You forgot by me0w (2.00 / 0) #47 Wed Nov 19, 2008 at 04:52:00 AM EST
*Airplane tickets for me0w so she can come to LHuSi Beers

"the only reason we PMS is because our uterus is screaming at our brain to go out, get fucked, and have a baby ... and it makes us angry."


I also propose by bobdole (4.00 / 1) #51 Thu Nov 20, 2008 at 12:56:38 AM EST
scrutinizing the pay of everybody in government (and pseudo-government, i.e. bbc, etc.) who makes more than the prime minister. I can't really see how running the BBC can be more stressfull or a larger responsibility than running a country...

(however I disagree with your NHS IT Spine point, it should be seriously reworked, but spending money on optimizing a system that already spends tons of money should be money well spent. Given that the people in charge are actually accountable and spend the money wisely. I believe that the huge project approach (from what I've heard about it, i.e. not much) will fail. The NHS would be better of with a lot of small scale project that can succeed and spend some time catching up rather than trying to run before it can walk.

My point here is something like reducing the time it takes to login for a doctor can actually mean a lot of money. A well paid doctor working nightshift (often 12 hours) logging in 10-15 times a 5 minutes each is an hour wasted at god knows how much an hour. Reducing that to 1 minute would mean an additional 40 minutes to spend on patients and doing stuff that we pay them for. There is potential here....
).

-- The revolution will not be televised.