?

Keep reading "Warlock"   2 votes - 50 %
Put it on hold for "Tooth and Nail"   0 votes - 0 %
-   1 vote - 25 %
Better: One train leaves Station A at 6 p.m. traveling at 40 miles per hour toward Station B. A second train leaves Station B at 7 p.m. traveling on parallel tracks at 50 m.p.h. toward Station A. The stations are 400 miles apart. When do the trains pass?   0 votes - 0 %
Better: 40 (t + 1) = 400 - 50t   3 votes - 75 %
-   1 vote - 25 %
New World silver drove Old World economic growth   2 votes - 50 %
New World silver did not drive Old World economic growth   2 votes - 50 %
 
4 Total Votes
Beasts of burden by Scrymarch (4.00 / 1) #1 Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:48:34 AM EST
This is a point Guns, Germs and Steel works over in a bit of detail. Presumably you're aware of the book, I can only repeat what everyone else has said, it's a great read on the topic.

I hadn't really thought about new world silver like that before. Can you also view it as a symptom of the economy itself expanding, through colonisation?

The Political Science Department of the University of Woolloomooloo



Symptom of an expanding economy by TheophileEscargot (4.00 / 1) #2 Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:06:34 AM EST
Interesting: I hadn't thought of it like that. The uneven distribution might have been a problem. According to this silver production expanded by "an order of magnitude".

However, compared to the total amount of silver around, that wouldn't necessarily have been that big a deal.

Suppose that the old world had been mining 1 million units per year for a thousand years: that would mean there's a billion units in circulation. Even if the new world mines instantaneously expanded production to 10 million units per year, that's only an inflation rate of 1 percent. Tiny.

Economists always seem to use Spanish silver and gold inflation as an example of the problems of Mercantilism, but Eakin doesn't mention it at all. Maybe it's just a myth?

On "Guns, Germs and Steel": I might read it sometime when I've got a smaller to-read list. As you know I'm not a big fan of the "Non-historian discovers Universal Laws of History which back up all his beliefs" genre. Maybe one day I'll just grit my teeth and do "Guns, Germs and Steel", Samuel Huntingdon's "The Clash of Civilizations" and Peter Turchin's "War and Peace and War" back to back. Might be worth it for the snark value alone ;-)
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

Snark value by Scrymarch (4.00 / 1) #6 Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:53:45 AM EST
I can see it now ... the only thing driving you forward being the buckets of scorn you can pour on them at the end ... this is half the reason I enjoyed No Logo :)

The Political Science Department of the University of Woolloomooloo

[ Parent ]

The silver inflation disaster seems a bit mythical by TheophileEscargot (4.00 / 1) #4 Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:20:23 AM EST
I've done a bit of Googling around and found a couple of sources.

They originally credit it to Adam Smith. I've looked through the Wealth of Nations and he does talk about a modest fall in silver prices due to the new world mines. He doesn't seem to think it was a disaster though. In fact he explicitly says that this doesn't affect interest rates. He goes on quite a bit about how since money is only valuable for what it can purchase, so this effect isn't that important.

Those articles cite as evidence:

  • A 15-fold increase in the currency of France, over a century. I make that 2.8% per year.
  • In Naples, an increase from 700,000 to 18 million ducats between 1570 and 1751. I make that 1.8% per year.
  • Gold inflation of 300% in 100 years. 1.1% per year.
Those aren't even inflation rates, just increases in currency. Given that populations and economies were getting larger, the actual inflation rate must have been even lower.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

Silver inflation by Scrymarch (4.00 / 1) #5 Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 11:15:19 AM EST
Well of course these things are multi-factorial ... I haven't followed up the European side much before, but I remember John King Fairbank citing it as one cause of the decline of the Ming dynasty in his A History of China. The availability of silver destroyed the Chinese terms of trade and tax base, like many Chinese dynasties they had a Ron Paul commodity standard based on silver. So it was a fairly mainstream theory on that side, until recently at least.

It's interesting to hear Adam Smith's take ...

The quick google searches on the same topic seem to see the use of silver as a symptom of Ming commercialism. Eg.

The Political Science Department of the University of Woolloomooloo

[ Parent ]

Christian expansion. by Billy Goat (4.00 / 1) #3 Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:24:57 AM EST
Maybe it isn't a matter of monotheism, so much as with Christianity - like Roman and Hellenistic civil thought and the Mauryan's Jainism - there is an intellectual framework for expansion and assimilation or destruction. With the Romans and Hellenistic folks, the framework is mainly civic (loyalty to the empire trumps ethno/cultural identity). With Christians and Jainism it is mainly theological (conversion campaigns, "sharing the path").

By contrast, the monotheistic Jews of ye olde times were ok with the destruction, but they weren't so big on conversion. Either you were part of the tribe or you weren't and it was a matter of birth, not chosen political or spiritual loyalties.

Just a thought. I don't know how well it works with what you've learned.



Christianity, expansionism and all that jazz by Tonatiuh (2.00 / 0) #7 Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:46:47 PM EST
Christianity is an all embracing religion, its aim is to bring the good news of the gospel to everybody, this was mandated by Jesus himself in no uncertain terms and zealots take that mandate very seriously.

I have never been hassled by a Muslim, a Jew or  a Buddhist to embrace Allah, Jehovah or to find my way to enlightenment, in the other hand I am fed up with Christians of all denominations trying to convince me it is always me who is wrong and why I should embrace Jesus, etc, etc.

Hernan Cortes, the conqueror of Mexico, was a complete psychopath, and as a matter of fact was an outlaw when he embarked in the conquest of Mexico, but he was also deeply religious (as most people were back then) and was fully convinced that one of his duties was to convert all the natives. All the Spanish adventurers had a similar mindset and the Catholic Church did precious little to temper their murderous zeal, this provided an undeniable factor that encouraged the conquest at all costs.

If one could have any doubts about how orchestrated and methodical the extermination of native religions was, it should be enough to remember that all symbols of native religions were destroyed, and to make sure the message got across, catholic churches were built, normally in exactly the same places were the old temples used to stand. When Cortes met local people of influence on his way to Tenochtitlan, he first tried to convert them to Christianity and he dealt  later with the practicalities of the conquest. That is how important it was to make the work of god.

I am no religious expert, but I am not sure if any other religions has been so relentless as Christianity in the New World.

There was also an orchestrated propaganda (I can't think of a better word) about the ways of the natives. For example it is often claimed that  the Aztecs used to sacrifice thousands of people at once (propagated legend claims as many as 20000 in one go) but no burial site of such proportions has ever been found. As a matter of fact modern archaeologists have found precious little to suppose that this was common practice, most likely what happened is that the early catholic priests methodically made the religious costumes of the local look in the worst possible light (most surviving Aztec codexes were compiled with the help of catholic priests), exaggerating some barbaric practices (like human sacrifice and self inflicted bleeding) while ignoring others (only nobility was deemed worthy of human sacrifice).

A young Mexican archaeologist whose name escapes me, pointed out that while in Europe it was common practice at the time to finish off injured adversaries in a battlefield during a war, in wars in early Mexico the aim was not necessarily to kill the enemy, and it was completely unworthy to kill injured noblemen, the main aim was to capture some noblemen in order to offer them to the god of the Sun so he will continue to come back each morning. What is more civilized is left as an exercise to the reader.

From the point of view of the Aztecs, Cortes and his men engaging in regular battle was a complete anathema, and they only dared to attack them once they desecrated one of their major religious ceremonies.