It's a tricky thing though. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 2) #7 Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 08:06:49 AM EST
I'm inclined to agree with you, but how much of that is due to the fact that I grew up in the majority population of an economically well of first-world democracy?

Would I be so general if I were born, say, in a third-world war-torn country and my survival depended on my identification with an ethnic?

Even if I made that choice, if everybody around me was making life and death decisions based on ethnic identities, would it make a difference what I though about the issue. Getting killed because one is identified as an X type of person may have as much to do with other people's decisions about you than your own self-identification.

I think the general strategy really only works for people who are never going to be put in a position where their identification is never put to the test, either because of decisions the person makes or decisions somebody will make about them.

In your case, during the Cambodian revolution, intellectuals and educated people were rounded up. Many pretended to be un-educated and illiterate for fear they'd be killed for not fitting the government's new idea of a nation of simple, honest farmers. Would the force and resources of being a mathematician be so essential that you would have died rather than renounce it?

Would I stand by my Christianity if, someday, Dawkins got his way and all believers were treated like mental cases?

Who knows? It seems unlikely. I suspect we wear these identities so lightly because they come so easy. It's a decision that doesn't matter for us, so the decision seems weird when others have to make it or have it forced on them.

[ Parent ]

What happens after the danger has passed? by Alan Crowe (2.00 / 0) #11 Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 06:11:37 PM EST
... and my survival depended on my identification with an ethnic?

Let us suppose that you have taken on the protective colouration required by circumstances. You survive. Time passes. Now what? I see several possibilities.

  1. The identity seeps into your bones. Eventually your are one of the older guys enforcing adoption of the indentity. You become one of the bad guys who forced the identity on you many years before.
  2. Cynicism in the ancient greek sense: There is no truth and when a path opens to a more advantageous identity you walk it. Perhaps you appear at a press conference, tearfully confessing the error of your old ways, but if it is convincing it is because you have practised infront of a mirror. You know that both identities are social conventions to be adopted to keep out of trouble.
  3. Grudge bearing. You watch and you wait. When those who forced your submission grow weak or careless you stab them in the back.
  4. Semi-permeability: Under pressure of compulsion the forced indentity seeps into you bones. Absent the pressure it slowly seeps out again. This seems to be the Yo-Yo Ma position. A package-deal identity is not a good idea, and free from serious pressure he notices this and mentions it to others.
  5. Moral specialisation: You notice how painful it is to be forced. When the danger is passed you shed the forced identity, but you do not forget. You don't force that particular package-deal identity on any-one else, and try to stop others from forcing it on others.
  6. Moral generalisation: You notice how painful it is to be forced. When the danger is passed you shed the forced identity, but you do not forget. You don't force any package-deal identity on any-one else, and try to stop others from forcing their different package-deal indentities on others.
Perhaps 4 is best, 5 and 6 offer both the pleasures and the dangers of righteous indigation. I'm not happy with my analysis. My gut feeling is that 1 is really bad, one should take a stand against it, and that involves taking a firmer stand against package-deal identities than Yo-yo Ma does.

[ Parent ]

There are some other possibilities. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #12 Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 07:03:17 PM EST
7. Your package identity becomes an intellectual and moral norm and you can no longer even understand that it isn't, in fact, part of the given order. The decisions you make based on "reason" follow from this submerged cultural background.

For example, your sense of the importance of the individual has a cultural history. This is both a positive history - hurrah for the Enlightenment and the Romantic movement - and a negative one - welcome to being narrow-cast ideodemographic consumer, my little capitalist cog, we've got you brand of rebellion on the sale rack.

That isn't to say that it isn't a good thing ultimately, but it isn't like you plucked it out of thin air - it was part of your lucky fate to be born into a Western, first-world, democracy - and (this is just an assumption) you had the good luck to be born into a family and social class that valued education and felt it was important for you to have that opportunity. Also, you are lucky enough to live in a time and place where you can type "I don't feel British" and not fear being locked up, beheaded, or socially ostracized.

I'm not saying that your POV isn't correct. I'd agree that, on the whole, a flexible, multi-cultural identity is probably more helpful and mentally healthy. I'm not sure I'd go as far as lm and claim that an interest in world music makes you an exiled philosopher king, but it isn't a bad thing. I'm just wondering how much of the anti-package identity isn't, in fact, just a particular brand of package.

[ Parent ]

anti-packaged identity = science fiction fan? by Alan Crowe (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 01:30:53 PM EST
If my identity isn't plucked out of thin air, where did it come from?

One idea is that it came from science fiction fandom. The heroes are men, humans, earthlings, rather than Americans, Russians, or Chinese. Perhaps this is simply to better sell to foreign markets. Perhaps it falls out naturally from placing your drama in a inter-planetary setting. Perhaps it is actually a flaw, the "it was raining on Mongo" flaw, that fails to see that planets are big and diverse.

But however it works, reading lots of fiction which assumes (often entirely implicitly) a global culture for the apes from the third rock from the sun, does tend to free one from historic and national identities.

[ Parent ]

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