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What about the dictionary definition by vorheesleatherface (2.00 / 0) #42 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:20:07 PM EST

of fundamental? I think that since a Democracy, as imperfect as it may be, is clearly against dictatorship, that my abovementioned changes would qualify as fundemental. Also, I think you may have your conspiracies mixed up. Tin foil hats are so the alien beings from another galaxy that live in my underwear drawer can't force me to give them my spare change.

If the president ever takes a third term, then that wouldn't be a big deal in and of itself. It is the power that the President has that is a big deal. The 22nd Amendment to the Constitution was ratified on February 26, 1951. Before then, it was only a tradition to be in office for only two terms, but not a legal limitation. We've had Presidents for more than two terms, but none of them had the option of total power.

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
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I have nothing mixed-up by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #45 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:37:00 PM EST

I conflate the two paranoid conspiracy theories to show that they are both identical in their silliness.

It's very simple, really; those with power do what they want, those without spend their time talking about what people with power do. This is how things have been, fundamentally, for thousands of years. Nothing has changed but the occupants of power. There is no grand plot to whittle away the liberties of you or anyone else, there are just countless bureaucrats plugging away at whatever tasks they've lined up for themselves, and people with capital at the top, renting offices for 2 to 4 year terms.

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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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I see your point. by vorheesleatherface (2.00 / 0) #51 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:16:37 PM EST

Power is in the same hands it has been in for a long time. What can, and is changing I think, is how many people are getting pissed about it and are brave enough, or crazy enough to do something about it. It always happens eventually, there is war, bankruptcy, or both. Then the chance to start over, good or bad. When I think about it, there was an opportunity for a not-so-bad form of government when the articles of confederacy were being used. But then the federalists broke the law (another discussion all together) and got rid of it in favor of a new constitution that was very different and established many more limitations on civil liberties, and states powers. That was the end of it right there. For those years that the confederation was in effect, it looks to have been pretty good. A step in a good direction. So what I'm saying here is that you may be correct. Maybe nothing has been "fundamentally" different since 1787, depending on your interpretation of "fundamental." With perhaps the exception of the civil war that resulted in increasing numbers of citizens calling themselves Americans instead of Virginians or New Yorkers or whatever. It helped solidify the acceptance of the new central government. What do you think? Is a paradigm shift a "fundamental" change?

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
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It's a shift in details, really. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 1) #56 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:28:54 PM EST

From the framework of what things were like in 1787, things may be slightly different now, but taken from the perspective of, say, a couple thousand years, people behave in largely the same manner, and those with the means and motivation use the alleged power of the collectivity of State to assert their power over the general population, same as always. That things have always been this way isn't evidence that everyone in power in history has worked in concert with everyone else in power (which I don't mean to say that you're saying they have), but rather evidence of human nature. Our behavior, as individuals, and as a species, is hugely predictable because it is always determined by the same factors.

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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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If that is true, by vorheesleatherface (2.00 / 0) #64 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:22:43 PM EST

, and we are as predictable as we think we are, which history tends to agree with, then eventually there will be a revolt or a really, really bad economic depression. No telling when. And I ponder, do I want to live in the predictable State that treats me like a complete slave, or a predictable state that treats me like a semi-slave. Maybe even a predictable new State because the old one just got its ass handed to it. What part of the predictable life cycle of government do I want to live in? I think the U.S. is past its midway point. Enough people don't like it, including myself, but not quite enough to start killing our government yet. However we're getting closer to that every day. I think a young state may be a nice place to live, but you've got to manage to live through the war to get there. I don't want to go to another country because I don't see anyone any better off than we are. It appears to suck everywhere. Maybe someone else will blow up their country and start over so I can move there.

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
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So what I was really getting at was by vorheesleatherface (2.00 / 0) #80 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:28:10 PM EST

just because people have a history of putting up with bullshit they don't like is no logical reason why they should continue to do so. "Fool me once shame on you..." If we're not even going to try to better ourselves and have a good time here on Earth we may as well just nuke the entire fucking planet and give up.

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
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People's history of putting up with bullshit by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #89 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 10:23:18 PM EST

doesn't need to be a justification for anything. To me, it's a logical reason to assume that they will continue to put up with bullshit, just like they always have, and always will. I don't see any particular need to take on the impossible task of changing any of it when I can spend my time how to best make it work to my advantage, and bide my time until I die.

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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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: ...always have and always will? by vorheesleatherface (2.00 / 0) #97 Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 12:50:03 AM EST

Tell it to someone who got maimed in a Civil War. Here is a list of them for you to choose from.

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
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