Hulver's site || Comments || Sharecropping Around The Drain

fascism and democracy aren't exclusive by lm (2.00 / 0) #39 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:05:55 PM EST

There is no prima facie reason why a fascist state can't be organized around an elected president. The fact that the US will have a new president soon says nothing about whether or not the US is moving towards fascism.

OTOH, abundant freedoms such as the right to privacy, habeas corpus, freedom of the press, etc., indicate that the US doesn't seem to be generally moving in the direction of fascism. Generally speaking, I think it fair to say that US citizens enjoy more rights and freedoms now than they did during WWII. The same is true of WWII era US citizens, they enjoyed more rights and freedoms than most US citizens during Reconstruction. Rinse. Latter. Repeat.

But to be fair, that these freedoms exist doesn't mean that there aren't those who are trying to move the US to a different place vis a vis personal freedoms.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

That isn't true. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 2) #41 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:14:33 PM EST

Fascism: an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

If the people have a say in their government, then it is not "authoritarian" enough a system to be called "fascist". Further, and I feel this is even more important, the vast majority of people who decry our government as "fascist" or "moving towards fascism" are 1) unaware of the definition of fascism, and 2) have yet to do the necessary logical footwork to persuade me that the introduction of fascism wouldn't be an improvement to what we have now.

All this whining about the loss of "personal freedoms" is typical of those who are insulated from real problems; because they have no real problems, these hypothetical problems and minor air travel inconveniences become The Biggest Problem, and Evidence of the Slippery Slope of the Erosion of Freedom. No matter how many morons claim it, it never becomes reality.

-
You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Not completely accurate. by vorheesleatherface (2.00 / 0) #43 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:29:45 PM EST

If the people have a say in their government it just signifies that the cycle of fascism is not yet complete. That is how it works. Fascism is all about bullshitting people into believing that they are doing the right thing by giving up their liberties. Or, people only think they have say in their government, but they don't. "Authoritarian" can be a horse by another name. "Of course you're freemen. Now pay your taxes or your representatives will suspend your liberties." I think you'll find the equivalent of that last line was added to many State Constitutions after the U.S Constitution was made official.

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
[ Parent ]

Are we on the same planet? by lm (2.00 / 0) #63 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:21:42 PM EST

Of the three regimes widely considered to be the epitome of fascism (Franco's Spain, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany), only one (Spain) was not a popularly elected government.

I doubt you read the rest of my comment. Please go back and do so. You seem to have taken my point about rights and freedoms to mean the exact opposite of what I wrote. Freedom in the US is probably at or close to an all time high. This indicates that the US is no where close to being a fascist state.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Consider these regimes: by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #66 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM EST

Pol Pot, Nikolai Ceausescu, Li Si, António Salazar, Idi Amin, Jean-Claude Duvalier, and Enver Hoxha. Of them, Salazar was almost "elected" (if you count appointment by your friends who held a coup as "election"), and all of them were actually fascist, totalitarian state leaders.

That I addressed concerns that were not yours does not indicate that I am unaware of what you were saying. It indicates that what I am arguing against (eg: the claim that America is "moving towards fascism") is incorrect, and that I am not straying from that point.

-
You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Let's take the non-fascists off that list by lm (4.00 / 1) #77 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:07:23 PM EST

~~Pol Pot~~, ~~Nikolai Ceausescu~~, ~~Li Si~~, António Salazar, ~~Idi Amin~~, ~~Jean-Claude Duvalier~~, and ~~Enver Hoxha~~

It takes an authoritarian regime to be fascist, but not every authoritarian regime is fascist. Most of the dictators you mentioned don't have the corporatism that is one of the central tenets of fascism. Others lack the collectivism. Others like the populism. Some are simply petty thugs with no real ideology.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

OK. by MohammedNiyalSayeed (2.00 / 0) #90 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 10:24:19 PM EST

-
You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
[ Parent ]

Go read about Duvalier's backers and by Horatio Hellpop (4.00 / 1) #102 Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:34:42 AM EST

put him back on that list.
When there's only 7 millionaire families in your country, it's pretty easy to make rich friends.

"You can't really know something until you ruin it for everyone." -some guy who used to have an account here
[ Parent ]

: IAWTP by blixco (4.00 / 1) #108 Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:00:46 AM EST

in that this man has hardcore firsthand knowledge of what he speaks.
---------------------------------
"You bring the weasel, I'll bring the whiskey." - kellnerin
[ Parent ]
: There's a better case for Papa Doc than Baby Doc by lm (4.00 / 1) #109 Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:03:07 AM EST

Jean Claude was more a kleptocrat than a fascist, and barely that. Most of all he was a playboy clown that wanted little to do with government other than spending the money it made.
Granted, a state can be fascist and a kleptocracy. But it seems fairly clear to me that by the time the Duvalier's voluntarily went into exile that virtually all the fascist elements of the government had decayed into chaos. If MNS has listed Francois Duvalier, I'd probably not have crossed him off the list.
There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Allow me by vorheesleatherface (1.00 / 1) #83 Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:56:05 PM EST

to step in and engage in some logical tap dancing. Fascism is an authoritarian system with emphasis on the importance of the state and unimportance of the individual and individual liberties. It is not however a classless system. Classlessness and common ownership belief would make it communism. Interesting how easy it is to go from one to another isn't it. Odd that they have historically opposed each other. I digress. With a class system in place, and the highest class, the authority, able to make any choices they want over the lower classes that have surrendered their individual rights, the majority of people in the state are susceptible to abuse from the higher class who have immunity from committing crimes on the lower class, and what's worse, the low class agreed to it. It is just plain peculiar and against animal nature to disregard our individual wellbeing and place our lives and the lives of our loved ones in the hands of people who we know think they are significantly suuperior to us. It is an indirect violation of survival instinct. It is a betrayal to our fellow human beings. That isn't better than what we have now because now at least we haven't had all of our guns taken away from us, our tax burdens feed social systems that provide for the underpriviledged the government creates, and higher classes can't get away with property theft or murder by simply doing to the lower class and saying that it was best for the state. We're better than that, and us "paranoid conspiracy theorists" would like to keep it from degrading worse than it is, because it can get a hell of a lot worse, but not if we get angry and fight.

"Stabbing someone in the head with a pitchfork is rarely beneficial to the relationship." - MereKat
[ Parent ]