People switching jobs by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #3 Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:46:09 AM EST
Doesn't this effect both ends? If it's hard for an English worker to find a new job when it flees to China, isn't it equally hard for a Chinese peasant farmer to switch to that new job?

I've noticed this disconnect when people talk about how programming jobs fleeing to India...the same people who bemoan how hard it is for a programmer here to switch jobs act as if all 1.2 billion Indians can become programmers overnight.

In my mind, the best argument for globalization is that the bigger the economy, the less dependent it is on fuckups/shortages/disasters in one area. I think we've actually seen this over the last twenty years, with things like the Japanese deflationary period and the dot-com bust in the US being absorbed by other parts of the economy. What happens to consumer if there's a local drought and the price of wheat skyrockets?
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is it? by martingale (2.00 / 0) #5 Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 07:56:20 AM EST
Doesn't this effect both ends? If it's hard for an English worker to find a new job when it flees to China, isn't it equally hard for a Chinese peasant farmer to switch to that new job?
The jobs that go to China tend to require lower skills. So your English worker (eg coal miner), after his job has gone to China, lives in an environment where the average jobs available require higher skills. The Chinese lives in an environment where the average job need lower skills than the average job in England. This is because China has the comparative advantage in lower skilled export industries.

The underlying assumption of the model is that comparative advantages are always followed, by definition. So the model says the English worker is finding just as easy to switch to another occupation as the Chinese peasant. The model doesn't know anything about skills.

So if you inject into the input side that gaining useful new skills may be unachievable for a fraction of the population (this goes against the model assumption), you find that the Chinese peasant is more likely to find a job.

In my mind, the best argument for globalization is that the bigger the economy, the less dependent it is on fuckups/shortages/disasters in one area [...] What happens to consumer if there's a local drought and the price of wheat skyrockets?
That's all very well, but what do you do when there are big wars which disrupt your suppliers, when there are cartels which refuse to sell you the products you've grown dependent upon (and have outsourced in a previous generation), etc? Oops, that's not accounted for in the free trade argument.

The problem with globalization is that there's no world government and world justice system and world police force. What makes free trade work well in a single country or in the first world is the stability, predictability and regulations agreed upon by cooperating governments. Without those governments, or if those governments have a different agenda, then free trade can make you worse off.

For example, think about the fact that China can easily produce the US military arsenal more cheaply. It truly makes sense from a cost perspective to outsource all the electronics and assembly of US weapons there or to India or Taiwan as applies. Imagine a world where all the tanks and airplanes are manufactured in a single region, and everyone buys them from there. It's ludicrous. Why? Because the assumption of free trade, that each country participating in it can reasonably _depend_ on goods being available equally regardless of whether they are produced locally or imported is not true for weapons technology, for instance.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
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Issues with that by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #8 Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 11:05:48 AM EST
First, when jobs go over seas, what jobs remain? These days, it's service jobs, which very often aren't especially skilled. It takes no more training for a Westerner to be a Starbucks Barista than a Chinese peasant to be a textile factory worker. Probably less. Second, one of the biggest complaints about globalization is the "offshoring" of jobs requiring technical skill.

There actually are very few arms suppliers in the world. But yes...it is in a country's best interest not to outsource weapons production out to anywhere other than strong allies. But that's a very special case. In any case, globalization no more means that any particular thing is only made in one country than a free market means any particular thing is only made by one company. Disruptions in supply are only really an issue for resources that are found in certain places, like oil. For manufacturing, if supply were disrupted in one place, some other place would start manufacturing as the price would have gone up.
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special cases and scope of the models by martingale (2.00 / 0) #10 Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 08:08:51 PM EST
First, when jobs go over seas, what jobs remain? These days, it's service jobs, which very often aren't especially skilled.
That's true, but isn't the kind of job the model is concerned with. The model is about export industries. The farmer has a greater choice of low skill export industries, whereas the Westerner isn't switching to another low skill export industry, but likely to enter the low skill service industry. Meanwhile the high skill export industry that the Western country specializes in according to the model isn't getting that worker.

Second, one of the biggest complaints about globalization is the "offshoring" of jobs requiring technical skill.
The model makes no particular allowance for technical skill. If the end product has lower unit price, that's what matters to the model.

There actually are very few arms suppliers in the world.
Yes, I realize that, I chose that example because it plainly induces power relationships between the suppliers and the dependant countries.

I don't believe it's such a special case really, as the scope of free trade arguments is global. Other problem areas at the global scale are things like water and gas supply, which also are too important to leave to free trade specialization.

In any case, globalization no more means that any particular thing is only made in one country than a free market means any particular thing is only made by one company.
The free trade argument being discussed in the previous thread is the comparative advantage argument, according to which open trade (ie without political interference) produces (eventually) specialization in areas where each country has a local advantage. That means that if your country needs food, water, energy, etc (ie exportable things) to function, everyone is better off if certain countries make the food, others make energy etc according to their local strengths.

Disruptions in supply are only really an issue for resources that are found in certain places, like oil.
It's also an issue when the local industry which used to produce the resource in earlier times no longer exists because it's cheaper to import. That's not to say the industry can't be recreated, but not easily in the short term, which is the time frame that matters in a disruption.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
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Um by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #11 Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 09:59:42 PM EST
hereas the Westerner isn't switching to another low skill export industry...
No...as I said...the Westerner is probably switching to a low skill service industry. Just look at the economies of the US and Western Europe...as the traditional low-skill manufacturing industries have gone offshore, the service sector has exploded.
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yes I know by martingale (2.00 / 0) #12 Tue Feb 20, 2007 at 05:13:44 AM EST
That was partially the point in my original thread with R.Mutt, that this assumption of the model also fails.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
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