Man, a scene from Exodus as the seal by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #8 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:25:19 AM EST

Would have been friggin' INTENSE. MOVEMENT OF JAH PEOPLE!

Bear in mind that I'm hypercaffeinated at the moment, which I'll use as an excuse for my shotgun-logic approach, but I believe the relationship between Masonry and the formation of the States is much more symbiotic than conspiratorial, as the Lodge, as it were, was a collective of like-minded individuals who wanted to build a secular state, as opposed to an evil Cabal of Dark Lords, building an Evil Empire, and served as a convenient rallying mechanism against folk like General Gage and other Tories. That said, it seems more than coincidental that a seal that referenced a history that the Lodge was trying desparately to associate themselves with, would be completely uninfluenced by Lodge leitmotifs. I do believe, though, that the real connections between the Lodge and the States' founders are better explored by means of military connections between the two than by the symbology of either grouping.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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Franklin's Proposal by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 2) #17 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 11:58:24 AM EST
Supposedly had Moses slippin' away while God rained fire on the Pharaoh and his men. It was Great Seal as SFX Big Budget Disaster Film. While it certainly would have caused no end of church/state issues later, it would have looked pretty badass, I think.

Truth is, I know very little about the Masons and any connection they may or may not have had in the formation of the United States. But one of my many little obsessions is currency. Consequently, I just happen to know about that one aspect of the story.

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Thumbnail version of Masonic history: by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #30 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:19:06 PM EST
What is known: In the early 1700s it became known that a fraternal club known as the Free & Accepted Masons existed in London and in Scotland. Whatever they may have been before then, at this point they were primarily a drinking & dinner club for intellectuals. As it spread it became a pretty powerful old-boys-network that spanned national boundaries and, through the spread of some seriously egalitarian ideals, had a serious effect on political development in the U.S. and Europe - which is apparently the main reason the Catholic Church doesn't like them; it's never gotten over the way Masons were involved in stripping the pope of secular power in Italy.

In the modern USA, Masonry itself is still pretty shy and retiring. It's most public face is the Shriners, who are a subordinate group. As a group, it's main purpose is to have meetings and raise money for charity. Masons give tons of money to charity (10 years ago, it was estimated at more than 1 million per day, I assume it's higher now).  There is no "national" masonic order - each state's fraternity is independent of the others and, as an artifact of history, while there are no racial criteria on joining the masons, there is an independent branch of freemasonry that is focused on minority members.

Interestingly enough, while I have promised not to discuss what masonic rituals are actually like, I can cheerfully tell you that the initiations for groups like the Moose, the Lions and the 4H are all strikingly similar - making me wonder if those other groups weren't derived from the Masons in some way.

What is highly speculative: the roots of the Masons apparently go back much deeper but they really were a secret society at that point which means THEY DIDN'T WRITE STUFF DOWN. There is no 14th century document signing transfering ownership of Templar naval fleets to the Grand Lodge of Scotland or anything like that. Thus, any information from before 1700 or so pretty much comes from doing linguistic archeology of masonic rituals - which means it's about as scientifically valid as last week's Learning Channel episode on the Bermuda Triangle. But, it's still fun to ponder. My personal opinion is that it has always been a society for people who held "unpopular" ideas - religious heretics, anti-royalists, etc..

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
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So You're Saying . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #35 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:35:05 PM EST
That if my partner (the party of the first party) and myself (the party of the second party) go into the mountains of India in hopes of finding a lost kingdom (the party of the third party) in the hopes of subjecting them to our complete and total rule, we should not expect Masonic symbols to convince these ancient people that we are gods?

This is going to throw my 5-year plan to retirement into complete disarray.

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Only if one of those symbols is by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 3) #37 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:42:13 PM EST
an AC130 gunship.


The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
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Do you consider 'nuclear weapons' to be by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 3) #38 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:42:17 PM EST

a Masonic symbol, or more a Rosicrucian symbol of successful alchemical transformation of one form of matter to another? If so, your plans are all set, proceed full steam ahead!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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Now you're getting all order-of-the-golden-dawn by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 2) #40 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:47:45 PM EST
on us.

I have studied the cards closely and there is no truth to the theory that Bush the Younger is actually the Magician reborn.1

1 I will admit, however, that Cheney bears a striking resemblance to the Hierophant.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
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We have a Mason here on HuSi. by calla (4.00 / 1) #36 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:41:58 PM EST
The tall kid from the NE. He hasn't posted in a while - what's his name?


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Naturally, illsorted can't say by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 1) #39 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:43:35 PM EST

Lest he be found where the tide comes but once a day, with stones in his pockets!


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.
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Bah. The oathes I swore were much ickier than that by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #43 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 01:56:45 PM EST
I'd give you an example, but I like my body parts where they are, thanks.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
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"...Lest his bowels be ripped from his body, by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #50 Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 05:31:14 AM EST
burned before him and cast to the four walls."


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The walls? The walls? by ObviousTroll (4.00 / 1) #51 Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 09:13:29 AM EST
I'm more worried about those pointy caps they like to put on the towers, thank you very much.

The doctor said it was the worst case of cookie-blindness he'd ever seen.
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Brainfart! by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #52 Wed Mar 22, 2006 at 11:51:02 AM EST
I meant four winds.  No idea what happened there!


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All very interesting. by dmg (4.00 / 1) #45 Tue Mar 21, 2006 at 04:06:27 PM EST
I suggest reading Manly P Hall's comprehensive tome for more insight into the masonic symbolism and then some...
It's heavy going at times, but very very interesting.
--
Hard work is morally wrong.
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